Bulls/Wizards

FavreFan · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:21 pm

Noah is extremely active out there. I am even more confident than I was before the preseason that this guy will have an impact, albeit maybe a small one, this season, and has a good future ahead of him. You cant underestimate hard work and hustle(fire and passion?) in the NBA, the sport which seemingly has the least of it. And yes he has a few more skills than hard work and hustle for all you haters out there.

sportsfan · **Joined:** Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:09 pm **Posts:** 3944

Thanks, bud. Watching the ALCS and forgot this was on.

Brick · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:04 pm

Let's see what he does when the starters actually care how much his hustle and determination works.

One more thing. Joakim Noah the player was not the problem with the pick. The fact that the Bulls have two offensively useless players that can't see the floor at the same time is.

If the Bulls trade Wallace in a Kobe Bryant deal, then the Noah pick is great. I see no benefit in having Noah when Wallace does the same thing but better.

Noah would be a valuable starting power forward on a team with Kobe, Deng and Tyrus Thomas. We would have to find a point guard as I assume that Hinrich, Gordon, Nocioni and draft picks would get a deal done as the Lakers scramble to get something for Kobe.

My Coach Vinny · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:06 pm

I need a second TV.

sportsfan · **Joined:** Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:09 pm **Posts:** 3944

Nas wrote:

Coach Crapowski wrote:

I need a second TV.

PIP

Kid Cairo's all over it.

Mustang Rob · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:53 am

I hate to say it this early, but given the choice right now of Tyrus or Noah, I'd keep Noah.
At least he looks like he can run for the full 48 minutes.

Tall Midget · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:10 am

Mustang Rob wrote:

I hate to say it this early, but given the choice right now of Tyrus or Noah, I'd keep Noah.
At least he looks like he can run for the full 48 minutes.

What the fuck has happened to TT? No way I'd give up on him yet given his elite athletic ability. He is the only player on the team who is an above average athlete when set against the rest of the NBA.

Mustang Rob · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:17 am

Mental Midget wrote:

Mustang Rob wrote:

I hate to say it this early, but given the choice right now of Tyrus or Noah, I'd keep Noah.
At least he looks like he can run for the full 48 minutes.

What the fuck has happened to TT? No way I'd give up on him yet given his elite athletic ability. He is the only player on the team who is an above average athlete when set against the rest of the NBA.

He seems to have that Eddy Curry work ethic going right now.
If he doesn't get his ass in gear, Skiles will burry him so far on the bench that he'll never see any floor time.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:48 am

Id rather have Tyrus than Noah, and I think Tyrus has showed some improvement over last year, but I think both will be good and I wouldnt be surprised if Noah had more of an impact this year.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:05 pm

Nas wrote:

Mental Midget wrote:

What the fuck has happened to TT? No way I'd give up on him yet given his elite athletic ability. He is the only player on the team who is an above average athlete when set against the rest of the NBA.

They might need to find some room for PJ Brown. PJ mentored the guy last year. People said this might be a problem before the draft. The big city can do that to you. It's the preseason so I wouldn't get too concerned or excited about the play of anyone.

I think their intention is for Joe Smith to play PJ's role this season.

Spinnin' Bucket · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:09 pm

The sole purpose PJ would have with the Bulls this year would be a S&T to obtain Kobe. And since that would likely be declared cap circumvention by the league, you can forget about him altogether.

Spinnin' Bucket · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:17 pm

Quote:

Not as long as they sign him to a 3 year deal (last 2 not guaranteed). If the Bulls gave him a lot of money in a 1 year deal just to trade him then the league would step in.

I'm well aware of that, and still feel it would be cap circumvention.

MattInTheCrown · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:11 pm

Nas wrote:

Mental Midget wrote:

What the fuck has happened to TT? No way I'd give up on him yet given his elite athletic ability. He is the only player on the team who is an above average athlete when set against the rest of the NBA.

They might need to find some room for PJ Brown. PJ mentored the guy last year. People said this might be a problem before the draft. The big city can do that to you. It's the preseason so I wouldn't get too concerned or excited about the play of anyone.

If TT needs a chaperon to see to it he puts his work in, I hope the Bulls just trade him.

Mustang Rob · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:30 pm

MattInTheCrown wrote:

Nas wrote:

Mental Midget wrote:

What the fuck has happened to TT? No way I'd give up on him yet given his elite athletic ability. He is the only player on the team who is an above average athlete when set against the rest of the NBA.

They might need to find some room for PJ Brown. PJ mentored the guy last year. People said this might be a problem before the draft. The big city can do that to you. It's the preseason so I wouldn't get too concerned or excited about the play of anyone.

If TT needs a chaperon to see to it he puts his work in, I hope the Bulls just trade him.[/quote]

MITC,
Sure, so Nas can start another Chandler vs. Wallace debate?

FavreFan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:56 pm

Nas wrote:

That hasn't ended. If they still had Chandler they would have a better shot at getting Kobe.

No, they have enough assets by far to offer a legit offer and make the money work. If Pax wants Kobe he can get him right now, it wouldnt chanhge his mind any more if Chandler was here and it wouldnt make it easier for the Lakers to move him here, we have plenty of pieces they want.

tmurf423 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:58 pm

I think we are playing hard ball right now because they HAVE to get rid of Kobe and we are trying to give them the least in return.

Bulldog Scott · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:24 pm

But if the Bulls had Chandler, there would be no need for Kobe because they would be the reigning NBA champions.

Brick · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:27 pm

Nas wrote:

Chandler is a young big that will dominate the boards and make a high percentage of his shots. You could say he is an improved version of Ben Wallace.

You could say that, but you would be wrong. Tyson Chandler is a more improved version of Theo Ratliff.

Mustang Rob · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:36 pm

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Chandler is a young big that will dominate the boards and make a high percentage of his shots. You could say he is an improved version of Ben Wallace.

You could say that, but you would be wrong. Tyson Chandler is a more improved version of Theo Ratliff.

Nas,
Do me a favor and reply here:
http://score670.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7822
Thanks :wink:

Mustang Rob · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:49 pm

WTF,
I thought I asked nicely enough

Brick · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:06 pm

Nas wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Chandler is a young big that will dominate the boards and make a high percentage of his shots. You could say he is an improved version of Ben Wallace.

You could say that, but you would be wrong. Tyson Chandler is a more improved version of Theo Ratliff.

Come on Rick you can do better than that. Ratiliff was never a high rebound guy. Chandler and Wallace are both guys that dominate the boards. Chandler just happens to be 7' and 8 years younger. Chandler averaged 13 points and about 15 rebounds over the last few months of the season too.

Your use of "improved version" indicates that you think that is/will be better than Ben Wallace. My opinion is that he is in between Ben Wallace and Theo Ratliff and is therefore an improved version of Theo Ratliff instead.

Chandler's career will never approach what Ben Wallace has done in his even if Wallace retired tomorrow.

Brick · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:22 pm

Nas wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Chandler is a young big that will dominate the boards and make a high percentage of his shots. You could say he is an improved version of Ben Wallace.

You could say that, but you would be wrong. Tyson Chandler is a more improved version of Theo Ratliff.

Come on Rick you can do better than that. Ratiliff was never a high rebound guy. Chandler and Wallace are both guys that dominate the boards. Chandler just happens to be 7' and 8 years younger. Chandler averaged 13 points and about 15 rebounds over the last few months of the season too.

Your use of "improved version" indicates that you think that is/will be better than Ben Wallace. My opinion is that he is in between Ben Wallace and Theo Ratliff and is therefore an improved version of Theo Ratliff instead.

Chandler's career will never approach what Ben Wallace has done in his even if Wallace retired tomorrow.

Why? He approached and passed some of Wallace best numbers last year. I think he will get better but I'm assuming you think he has peaked. Most players don't peak at 25 though. Did you think he could play as well as he did last year?

He had a good season last year. Chandler will probably be a marginally better scorer but that is not saying much.

Wallace will end up being the better rebounder(in their respective primes) and defensive players(which is hard to quantify in stats).

Tyson Chandler will never win 4 defensive players of the year, and I would surprised if he ever got two of them.

Ben Wallace will be on the bottom of the list of the all time great defensive players. Chandler will not.

As for who would be better on the Bulls next year, that is a different argument and more appropriate for Mustang Rob's thread.

Brick · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:23 pm

Nas wrote:

Currently he has a better FG and FT% than Wallace. This is what he needs to catch Wallace.

4780 rebounds highly likely
703 assists unlikely
1140 blocks likely
2034 points highly likely

You forgot one:
4 defensive player of the year awards.

Brick · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:32 pm

Nas wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Currently he has a better FG and FT% than Wallace. This is what he needs to catch Wallace.

4780 rebounds highly likely
703 assists unlikely
1140 blocks likely
2034 points highly likely

You forgot one:
4 defensive player of the year awards.

highly unlikely

Case closed.

Hawkeye Vince · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:47 pm

Nas wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Nas wrote:

Chandler is a young big that will dominate the boards and make a high percentage of his shots. You could say he is an improved version of Ben Wallace.

You could say that, but you would be wrong. Tyson Chandler is a more improved version of Theo Ratliff.

Come on Rick you can do better than that. Ratiliff was never a high rebound guy. Chandler and Wallace are both guys that dominate the boards. Chandler just happens to be 7' and 8 years younger. Chandler averaged 13 points and about 15 rebounds over the last few months of the season too.

Your use of "improved version" indicates that you think that is/will be better than Ben Wallace. My opinion is that he is in between Ben Wallace and Theo Ratliff and is therefore an improved version of Theo Ratliff instead.

Chandler's career will never approach what Ben Wallace has done in his even if Wallace retired tomorrow.

Why? He approached and passed some of Wallace best numbers last year. I think he will get better but I'm assuming you think he has peaked. Most players don't peak at 25 though. Did you think he could play as well as he did last year?

He had a good season last year. Chandler will probably be a marginally better scorer but that is not saying much.

Wallace will end up being the better rebounder(in their respective primes) and defensive players(which is hard to quantify in stats).

Tyson Chandler will never win 4 defensive players of the year, and I would surprised if he ever got two of them.

Ben Wallace will be on the bottom of the list of the all time great defensive players. Chandler will not.

As for who would be better on the Bulls next year, that is a different argument and more appropriate for Mustang Rob's thread.

I agree with everything you said with the exception of who would be better. If you could promise Wallace will show up to play every game and his numbers won't drop for the 5th consecutive year I would rather have his experience of Chandler's potential. That's not likely though. Paxson gambled that the addition of Wallace would help the Bulls win a title in the first 3 years of his contract. I thought the Bulls were still a few years away and therefore Chandler was the better option because he was younger.

So is Chandler Marcus Camby?

FavreFan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:45 pm

Nas you also forgot steals which was a big contributor in Ben being named to those DPOY's. You cannot compare Ben and Chandler when it comes to careers, because right now Chandlers is absolutely dwarfed. He has had one really good season and right now, today, Wallace is the better player. Chandler might have grabbed a couple more boards and scored a couple more points, but Ben Wallace is the better player right now. Marcus Camby is definitely a better player and better rebounder right now then both of them. Chandler still has potential to get better, and while Im not sure if he has peaked or not, I dont see his RPG ever getting too much higher than the 12.7 it was last season.

Bulldog Scott · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:08 pm

FavreFan wrote:

Nas you also forgot steals which was a big contributor in Ben being named to those DPOY's. You cannot compare Ben and Chandler when it comes to careers, because right now Chandlers is absolutely dwarfed. He has had one really good season and right now, today, Wallace is the better player. Chandler might have grabbed a couple more boards and scored a couple more points, but Ben Wallace is the better player right now. Marcus Camby is definitely a better player and better rebounder right now then both of them. Chandler still has potential to get better, and while Im not sure if he has peaked or not, I dont see his RPG ever getting too much higher than the 12.7 it was last season.

Whether Ben is better than Chandler or not, I think you would agree that the gap is getting a lot smaller than it was at this point last year, which is a big black mark for Pax when you factor in age and contract.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:56 pm

Bulldog Scott wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Nas you also forgot steals which was a big contributor in Ben being named to those DPOY's. You cannot compare Ben and Chandler when it comes to careers, because right now Chandlers is absolutely dwarfed. He has had one really good season and right now, today, Wallace is the better player. Chandler might have grabbed a couple more boards and scored a couple more points, but Ben Wallace is the better player right now. Marcus Camby is definitely a better player and better rebounder right now then both of them. Chandler still has potential to get better, and while Im not sure if he has peaked or not, I dont see his RPG ever getting too much higher than the 12.7 it was last season.

Whether Ben is better than Chandler or not, I think you would agree that the gap is getting a lot smaller than it was at this point last year, which is a big black mark for Pax when you factor in age and contract.

Yeah I agree but like Nas said Pax gambled that they could win a championship within 3 years of him being signed. Right now I think the Bulls have the best team in the Eastern Conference, and Ben Wallace right now would help a team win a championship more than Chandler would. Now I realize that it will be tough for the Bulls to do that, and I can definitely be as much of a homer as Nas on some things, but I think its possible in the next couple years with or without Kobe. I dont think any of our core players have peaked yet except Ben obviously, and who knows how good we can be. I also think Ben Wallace will stop the slide and have a decent yet, somewhere around 8 PPG, 11 RPG, 1.5 SPG, 2.5 BPG, but his main contributions again will be in the playoffs. He had an awesome series against the Heat in the sweep last season.

Hawkeye Vince · **Posted:** Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:17 am

FavreFan wrote:

Nas you also forgot steals which was a big contributor in Ben being named to those DPOY's. You cannot compare Ben and Chandler when it comes to careers, because right now Chandlers is absolutely dwarfed. He has had one really good season and right now, today, Wallace is the better player. Chandler might have grabbed a couple more boards and scored a couple more points, but Ben Wallace is the better player right now. Marcus Camby is definitely a better player and better rebounder right now then both of them. Chandler still has potential to get better, and while Im not sure if he has peaked or not, I dont see his RPG ever getting too much higher than the 12.7 it was last season.

Camby is an not that much of an upgrade over a current Tyson Chandler. The big difference in the two is that Camby knows how to stay on the floor. His career numbers are 10.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.5 bpg, last year was 11.2/11.7/3.3. He's usually plays 60 games a year.

FavreFan · **Posted:** Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:27 am

Im not sure you can compare career numbers for either of them because I dont know how relevant it is. Camby is still playing like its his prime, and Chandler is playing like hes entering it. Camby averaged .7 less RPG, and significantly more SPG, BPG, APG, and a couple more PPG. I still think Camby is a better rebounder overall but they may be the same in that cat, but overall Camby is a much better player right now, it all depends on how much Tyson can continue to improve.

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