If we divided fWAR by IP, so basically WAR as a rate stat, here the top 12 in "modern" baseball history. (1912 onward). #9 shocked me, but it makes sense if you think about it. (100 starts or more)

1. Pedro Martinez
2. Roger Clemens
3. Randy Johnson
4. Curt Schilling
5. Sandy Koufax
6. Roy Halladay
7. Lefty Grove
8. Bob Gibson
9. Mark Prior
10. Mike Mussina
11. Bret Saberhagen
12. Greg Maddux

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Agree 100%. Here is is holding Bagwell up in the air with one arm.

_________________
Soccer 1,2,3
Spanish Honor Society 1,2,3,4
Forensics 1,2,3,4

"Smiles with Nostrils"

"...no Hmong, go find some blacks"

If we are going to start dinging guys for using steroids because of the era-- nobody that played during that time would ever get in. Barry Bonds was one of the best hitters I have seen in a live game. I think Biggio was on something as well later in his career, he started as catcher but later in his career was able to play speed positions? I guess the litmus is that guys who are confirmed users or highly suspected that are raging assholes are penalized.

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

It's almost impossible to address. A HOF that has fucking Biggio in and Bonds, Clemens, et al out is a joke. Biggio is the white Sour Lou Whitaker for a new millenium. His plaque should read "Smart enough to not get busted."

_________________
Soccer 1,2,3
Spanish Honor Society 1,2,3,4
Forensics 1,2,3,4

"Smiles with Nostrils"

"...no Hmong, go find some blacks"

his arms look freakish compared to his head

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Back in the early 2000s I was at a Sox interleague game with the 'Stros sitting in the 3rd row right behind the visitors' on deck circle. One of the guys we were with screamed "ANDRO" so loud when B&B were on deck that it could have been heard in the bleachers. Not an iota of reaction from either though I think he shook Bagwell up. He was like 0 for 5 with 4 Ks. We had the seats another time and he screamed to Mo Vaughn that he was fucking up his Roto team. Mo turned around and started talking shit to him (comically). Really funny guy.

_________________
Soccer 1,2,3
Spanish Honor Society 1,2,3,4
Forensics 1,2,3,4

"Smiles with Nostrils"

"...no Hmong, go find some blacks"

He started behind the plate then went to centerfield and second base and was very good at all three. Not sure many if any big leaguers could pull that off. He had a rare combination of exceptional skill and elite athleticism.

That's all fine and good, but never in an season did I think "Biggio is one of the best in the game" and I am certainly certain he juiced. I'd put in Piazza much sooner, he juiced as well, but clearly one of the best players to play his position.

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

That's it in a nutshell right there.

But I will say this, people don't like to feel as if they've been made a fool. And I don't think people feel that way about Biggio the way they do with Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc.

I would compare it to the horse racing business. There's a line in there somewhere. You absolutely can't race a horse at the highest levels on nothing more than hay, oats, and water. You're going to go broke. We had a reputation for racing our horses "cold", i.e. without drugs. Was that true? Of course not. As I said, it can't be done. But there's a big difference between the things we did and these guys that take a horse that can't break 1:57 for a mile and have him win in 1:51 the first start out of their barn. People resent that. You're pissing in their faces. They were both using something illegal, but Sammy Sosa pissed in the fans' faces and Craig Biggio didn't. At least I think that's how many people see it.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I think that's pretty accurate. "I don't want to know, so don't make me know."

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Piazza was a awful defensive catcher.

_________________
2018
#ExtendLafleur
10 More Wins

Well I'm certainly not certain about Biggio but I am certainly certain that Piazza was clearly not the best anything. Agree to disagree.

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

He was the best catcher who was also a great pitcher off the field.

_________________

Votes Player Percentage
534 Randy Johnson 97.3%
500 Pedro Martinez 91.1%
455 John Smoltz 82.9%
454 Craig Biggio 82.7%
384 Mike Piazza 69.9%
306 Jeff Bagwell 55.7%
302 Tim Raines 55.0%
215 Curt Schilling 39.2%
206 Roger Clemens 37.5%
202 Barry Bonds 36.8%
166 Lee Smith 30.2%
148 Edgar Martinez 27.0%
138 Alan Trammell 25.1%
135 Mike Mussina 24.6%
77 Jeff Kent 14.0%
71 Fred McGriff 12.9%
65 Larry Walker 11.8%
64 Gary Sheffield 11.7%
55 Mark McGwire 10.0%
50 Don Mattingly 9.1%
36 Sammy Sosa 6.6%
30 Nomar Garciaparra 5.5%
21 Carlos Delgado 3.8%
4 Troy Percival 0.7%
2 Aaron Boone 0.4%
2 Tom Gordon 0.4%
1 Darin Erstad 0.2%
0 Rich Aurilia 0.0%
0 Tony Clark 0.0%
0 Jermaine Dye 0.0%
0 Cliff Floyd 0.0%
0 Brian Giles 0.0%
0 Eddie Guardado 0.0%
0 Jason Schmidt 0.0%

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Hawk Harrelson gets a vote?

Kind of a travesty that Lee Smith and Rock Raines are not in.

_________________

I think he did his fair share of catching off the field.

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Why all of the Alan Trammell love?

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

No. He would have voted for Jermaine Dye, as well.

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Why not? Elite player for a long time, won a championship, comparable stats to Biggio, Larkin, and Sandberg. I'm surprised he and Lou Whitaker aren't in.

_________________

I never thought of him as elite. My HOF would have less players in it.

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Lifetime 1.232 OPS vs the Pirates. #1 in MLB history (min 100 PAs)

_________________
"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

From the folks who bring you The Chicago Sun Times .... lets play "What's Wrong With This Picture?"

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

I've never heard anyone argue otherwise?

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

That's Jeff Bagwell in the picture.

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Apologist you just said he was one of the best players to play his position, I am confused?

_________________
2018
#ExtendLafleur
10 More Wins

By playing the position, I mean donning the equipment and being back there, not implying that he had any skill doing so. His offensive numbers match up with the best to ever play at his position, the "best" is looking at him in totality relative to other HOF catchers

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

When I say someone is the best to play a position, I guess I look at everything. Yes, he is one of the greatest offensive catchers, but nowhere close defensively. I just don't hold him in as high regard as others, but that is me.

_________________
2018
#ExtendLafleur
10 More Wins

My early feeling for next year is that Griffey Jr., and Piazza get in.

I could see 1 of Schilling, Raines, Bagwell getting the call

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Correct. Your prize is a gasoline-powered turtleneck sweater with CSFMB hand embroidered by 3 North Korean orphans over the Christmas season that they're not at all aware of in part due to their generous working hours afforded them by Dear Leader.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George