Let me further clear up the confusion for you.

Jamal Crawford didn't sniff a playoff game until his tenth season in the league yet Paxson was wrong for allowing him to leave. Everyone knew that the Knicks overpaid for him yet in your eyes it really wasn't much. The Bulls team got better the minute he was no longer a part of it yet Paxson really erred by letting this dude walk.

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There are a lot of inconsistencies to your arguments which I'd hoped would have improved during your hiatus pd. but sadly, it has not.

You constantly bash "Marshmelo" for his inability to win anything yet he made the playoffs in each of his 1st 9 yrs in the league.

Do you realize that you are advocating for a guy that didn't make the playoffs during any of his first nine yrs in the league? Talk about your failed logic.

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yeah but what is he great at communicating? i called thibodeau "superskiles" because while he might not have been as brilliant as skiles at drawing up inbounds plays (...and who is really?) he seemed to have the same general MO as skiles, only with better results (which might or might not have been the result of having derrick rose for pretty long stretches of 2+ seasons) and of course he didnt get fired right as he went outside to start grilling on the 4th of july.

both seemed to be "grinders" who wore their plauyers down and could definitely have a bit of the redass. do we have any guesses as to who the "3 unnamed players" are who tuned him out? i think that ws starting to happen with skiles as well, which then led to the jim boylan era which featured such timeless classics as ben wallace deciding that joakim noah was suspended for a game or two. awwww yeah that really brings me back!

but hey at least the bulls were able to barely miss the playoffs by ~2 games or something and then the NBA took the opportunity to rig the #1 draft pick to go to them (i'd bet every lottery is rigged, call it a gut feeling but seriously i'm to trust some highly paid (by the NBA) accounting firm who goes to commercial now when they actually draw the balls? mmmml) because the bulls are one of their top franchises (especially worldwidel thank you jordan!) and since they kept putting 17k+ sellouts in the UC during the lean post-jordan years (you now remember donyell marshall.... and our new coach fred hoiberg!) teh NBA saw a unique chance to get the bulls turned up a notch or two or three because clearly once you get rid of jim boylan and get anyone competent in there (or as it turns out, even vinny) they're going to be back in the playoffs and your one golden opportunity to get them upgraded will be over.

however this isnt a midseason canning and i dont think the bulls have the balls to tank, even if it isn't necessarily leftover thibodeau "WIN EVERY POSSESSION, LET ALONE GAME!" mentality still they're too good to get another proper pick.

so yeah c'est la vie.... i guess superskiles was indeed more hardcore/creepy/misogynistic/etc. skiles had YAHAAAATIME! and thibodeau had "i painted this portrait of you. it took me 40 hours to complete" time, but in the end they're both unceremonously dumped off like basketball-impotent pieces of shit and in the end they'll both likely go to some mid-league team and be grindy and efficient and literally pimps seeing as they can get players made/paid/laid and life goes on...... with fred hoiberg?

ah well, it's times like this i'm glad derrick rose is a natural born leader to lead us to the promised land.....even if it is merely the 2nd round of the playoffs!

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Anybody who was watching those bad, bad Bulls teams will know for a fact that Crawford and Chandler were bust outs while they were here.

Crawford could light it up every now and then, (he scored 50 once) but he wanted it to be his turn on offense every time down the court. He was only interested in getting his shots up and that was it. And although he was quite shoosty as well, I would take Ben Gordon's Bull tenure over Crawford's ten times out of ten.

As for Chandler, was there a more frustrating player back then? Some would argue Curry, but I was just angry with him for what I believed was a lack of effort. Though in fairness to him, the guy had an unknown heart condition. Tyson would frustrate the hell out of me as a fan simply because you would see those flashes of defensive brilliance and rebounding and then it was gone for the next six or seven games. Part of it was how Krause sold the fandom on him. Krause was talking up his Garnett like potential which got us all excited. Sadly, once he took the court we all quickly realized this guy can't shoot a jumper. It wasn't working out for him here and it was time to part ways. I believe he even said something to that effect.

I'm still baffled by the ripping of Paxson here. It seems as though only me and longtimeguy are supporters of his. For me, since Paxson took over there has been a significant upgrade in talent on this roster and we should have definitely had much better post season success.

You really don't know when to blame bad coaching. It is cool.

I don't even like Crawford and Chandler. But they had value in the league and Paxson failed to capitalize on returns. The Bulls got back NOTHING for either player, and they went on to have serviceable careers. Paxson failed there, and Paxson and Forman have failed with other moves.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Getting rid of those who contribute to a bad lockerroom or play on the court is win in the NBA. And if you're going to say they've failed with other moves (every front office in every sport does) then you have to give them credit for the one's they got right.

Deng, Noah (who very few even wanted) Rose, Butler, Gibson, Gordon, Hinrich, Asik, Mirotic, Snell and hopefully McDermott.

The one time he gambled and took a shot at what most thought was off the charts athleticism was Thomas and it blew up in his face. Other than that, I just can't see how Paxson has failed in the personnel department.

I was advocating for anyone. The point that you apparently missed is bad to mediocre players can average 20 ppg. That doesn't make them a good acquisition.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Deng was a good pick.
Noah had a good two years. Hopefully he does better now. A lot of people wanted him; look at mock drafts.
Rose was a consensus #1 pick, and the Bulls lucked out in the lottery.
Butler had a great coach. Thibs is great with guards.
Taj Gibson was given too much money for his role on this team.
Ben Gordon shot the ball a lot. He was a terrible basketball player.
Hinrich was a good pick.
What about Omer Asik? That they were smart not to pay him? Yes.
Nikola Mirotic hasn't done anything in the NBA yet.
Tony Snell? You're reaching.
McDermott? Now you're just naming players that have appeared in a Bulls uniform.

If those are your highlights, I believe the lowlights I've addressed severely outweigh the positives.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Chandler was a cancer? When did that happen?

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

They really didn't have much value back then. You can't market two guys that play on a team that has struggled to win twenty games pretty much every yr that they have been in the league. Both were evaluated wrong by Krause. Crawford was sold as a 6'6 point guard when he was drafted. He clearly was an off guard. Chandler as Matches stated was sold as the second coming of Garnett. He clearly wasn't and his career was a disappointment (at least in Chicago).

IMU there is a bit of revisionism here. Both players were a part of the Tim Floyd era that everyone hates so much. Cartwright was also mixed in there. Don't forget that it was Krause that hired Cartwright and it was Paxson that was forced to fire him.

Paxson had to clean up a number of Krause mistakes and he has done an admirable job. What general manager doesn't make mistakes. I can point to every team in the league and if you look at the roster I can find mistakes far worse than the ones that Paxson gets blasted for.

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There are at least two phases for Paxson:

1) rebuilding the Bulls after Krause's monster Chandler-Curry vision collapsed. He did this by getting rid of guys of questionable repute like Curry and Rose, and restocking the roster with Deng, Gordon, Nocioni, and Hinrich. This team peaked in second round playoffs series under Skiles. Pax then inexplicably "went for it" by throwing millions at a 6'8 over the hill, offensively challenged center when the team needed more diversified scoring options, or the precise area in which Wallace didn't offer anything. He then also blew the Thomas pick. Under Del Negro the team didn't have an identity and would have went nowhere if not lucking into Rose.

2) Paxson made the right hire in Thibs who took the team as far as it could go in his first year after they had drifted under Del Negro. He needed to add more scoring after being eliminated but inexplicably signed another over the hill former Piston who did not excel in what was needed most: one on one scoring. He.signed Hamilton over Crawford in what was the wrong move at the time and in retrospect. After the injuries to Rose I think Paxson has done a good job stocking the team with talent.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Most people in Chicago wanted nothing to do with Noah. He's been an all-star and defensive player of the year. Maybe if he wasn't overworked he'd be in better shape today
Could have taken Beasley instead of Rose. Teams screw up the #1 pick all the time.
So Butler has become the player he is only because of Thibs? I tend to give the player most of the credit.
The Taj contract is universally heralded as tremendously team friendly contract for what he's provided.
Ben Gordon is still in the league and was tremendous for the Bulls his first few years.
Hinrich has had a solid career.
Asik was and is a productive big man in this league. I for one was sad to see him go. Hopefully he comes back though his style might not fit the new coaching staffs plans going forward.
Mirotic has proven he can score off the bench if given the chance. Instant offense is extremely valuable in the NBA. Teams would be lining up to have Nikolai on their squad.
Tony Snell also proved he can play in this league. Anyone who watched the guy can see he has talent. Whenever he got minutes he produced.
As for McDermott, you'll notice I said "hopefully." Once the guy gets a fair shake then we can make a determination.

I've been a fan on the Bulls drafting. They almost always get a solid to good player. The problem is that besides Rose they haven't been able to acquire a star. They've had opportunities to acquire a younger Gasol and others but Paxson falls in love with his players and doesn't pull the trigger. You need stars to win and the Bulls haven't had one in 4 years.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

From what I've seen, most people in Chicago wanted Thibodeau fired.

Most people in Chicago must be idiots.

You better hope Taj's contract is team friendly, as the Bulls will need to move it before the season starts.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

No he wasn't, but he surely contributed to the bad play on the court. Crawford was more of the locker room issue but I wouldn't call him a cancer and never did. Artest (though it wasn't his fault) and Jalen Rose were worse.

Crawford just wanted to get his offense in regardless of the situation. Would you agree with that?

You are wrong on so many levels.

1. Noah has had more than two good yrs.

2. Rose was not a consensus #1 pick. Gms around the league were split 50/50 on Rose and Beasley. There was nothing unaminous there.

3. Thibs didn't play Butler until other guys were injured. i.e. Deng. He didn't even play Butler while Hamilton was doing the injured boogie. And his method of developing players was 40 min. one night 8 the next. check the box score from that yr.

4. Thibs gets credit for the players that turn out Paxson gets none for drafting them. Little bias there don't you think. Anyone that knows anything about basketball will tell you that no amount of coaching can improve a player that much. He has to have the requisite talent first.

5. Ben Gordon was not a terrible basketball player. He was a sixth man of the yr. He has a 20 point per game playoff scoring avg. He was the guy that made most of the big shots during his time with the Bulls. He was the one guy on those teams that could get his shot off against just about anyone. He won a number of games for the Bulls during his yrs here.

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Agreed on Butler. He absolutely made himself into a star player through hard work and determination. I honestly don't think Thibs had much to do with his success unless you consider burying him on the bench as a rookie to be coaching genius. (hey...maybe that was his plan for McDermott).

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“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

How can Sixth Man be your Exhibit A if you say that Jamal Crawford is a terrible basketball player? And you know who lost to Crawford that year? Taj Gibson, another player you hate.

/thread

This board is at a low point for sports discussion. Bigfan needs to burn down this fucker and start anew.

/board

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I'd say the Thibs issue is much closer to 50/50 but of course that's only from the sites and forums I go to.

And as fans we're always making judgements without all the facts. That's just what we do. We don't have access to all the background stuff and truths as to why certain moves are made. We're wrong much more than we're right, but being a fan is fun when you can armchair QB things. Looking back in hindsight on what should and shouldn't have been done is a big part of fandom.

I will agree with you on the unwillingness to take risks. He doesn't take chances on guys with bad character. He was burned by the Tyrus Thomas move on a few fronts and I believe that has made him a little reluctant.

In terms of drafting he has pretty much gotten it right with the exception of Thomas. Whenever you look at drafts you not only look at the guys that a person drafts you also look at the guys he could have drafted. He really hasn't missed on that many guys when you look at it. The Bulls throughout his tenure have drafted from the middle of the first round down. He has been able to snag players in areas of the draft that people typically can't find players. If you look at the NBA the best at that these days are people in San Antonio and possibly OKC. Paxson is right there or a shade below. That is how you judge your GMs. Look at all the teams that draft in the top 5 of the draft every yr.

He rarely misses on draft picks and for those that think its so easy look at other teams that have failed at it during the last ten yrs.

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its probably at low point because you routinely misquote and distort the facts. ( I guarantee that you can't find the quote where I stated this).

I did state that he was a loser. Jamal Crawford participated in his first playoff game during his 10th season in the NBA Ben Gordon participated in the playoffs during his 1st yr in the league. I stated all of this above but there is a need to reiterate for those scoring at home.

The Bulls got better the minute they rid themselves of Crawford and his gunning ass ways. The Bulls won twice as many games after he left as they did his last yr here. There isn't a person that really knows the game that believes that the Bulls would be championship contenders if they still had Crawford. He became better about four yrs after he left the Bulls. He didn't do shit with New York either. Look at his sixth man of the yr awards and the yrs that he won them.

A lot of you guys really just state shit without really knowing what the hell you are talking about.

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Nas if you ever want to know why I have always commented on Bernstein's opinions and how certain posters tend to get their information from him, this is exhibit A. Ben Gordon was a player that Bernstein hated as I recall and thus he must be bad. The Guy made the All Rookie team and won the 6th man of the yr award early in his career. He was one of the best pure scorers in the league during his yrs with the Bulls. Unlike Crawford, Gordon actually played in meaningful basketball games before the age of 30. The Bulls got better the day he arrived. Look at the record. The narrative presented by talk show talking heads never quite fit the results. The Guy got it done in the regular season and the playoffs.

Jamal Crawford as Matches stated was a shoot first guard who always looked to pad his stats once the game was already decided. He learned this technique from his fellow Wolverine Jalen Rose. If IMU had ever bothered to actually watch the game he would realize this. He also is a career 41% shooter from the field.

These 6th man of the yr awards that you speak of were won by Crawford while playing on his 4th team, not the Bulls. Crawford was a player that Bernstein liked and hence he must be good. Crawford has never made it past the second round of the playoffs. He is a better player than Gordon at this stage but as far as the Bulls go there isn't a person that would have rather had Crawford over Gordon back then.

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Here is one instance of dissing Gordon's BULLS career. You didn't do it though.

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Here is another diss where you clearly state that he was terrible at basketball. You didn't do it though. Nah not you. I'm trying to give you the out and I'm strongly encouraging you to take it dumbass.

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Jamal Crawford has had a better NBA career than Ben Gordon. Period.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

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Elections have consequences.

The origin of this entire discussion was bad Paxson picks. Gordon was called a bad pick by Paxson yet he avg. 19 points a game during his Bulls career.

He was called a terrible player yet he avg 19 a game as a Bull. The Bulls made the playoffs four yrs out of the five yrs he was a Bull.

He avg. 20 a game for his career during the playoffs. I never argued about whose overall career was better. I don't give a shit about his post Bulls career. As a Bull he was better. The Bulls were a better team with him than they were with Crawford. The Bulls became a better team once Crawford left. He was the embodiment of that losing ass culture that needed to be changed. Krause created it and Paxson tried to fix it.

There was no "getting" anything for him to be made. He was a 40% shooter that avg. 11 points for his career at the time. His teams were laughing stocks around the league. It was a classic case of addition by subtraction. He had little in the way of value at the time and no one other Isaiah Thomas wanted him.

Guys that no basketball no this. The fact that Ben Gordon who avg. 19 is considered terrible shoes you really dont. Crawford during the later yrs has been a better player but was never my point. Overall he has had a better career but Gordons best yrs in the league were better and he has been a better playoff performer.

There is only a .7 career difference in career avg. and Gordon has a higher shooting percentage.

On this note I will bid the board a fond farewell. I wanted to clear this up before bouncing

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Neither player has a good shooting percentage. You're not going to make either player look good using that.

Jamal Crawford could do more than score. He was an important part of many good NBA teams. Ben Gordon couldn't even get a lot of minutes on really bad Pistons teams.

PPG doesn't mean shit if you give up more than you score or cause your team to suffer.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

During his time with the Bulls Ben Gordon shot around 44%-45%. Going to Detroit was terrible but he chased the money which I believe was not much more than the Bulls were offering. They wanted Ben Gordon to stay while they were happy to see Crawford leave.

They both are weak defenders. During Crawford's time with the Bulls he had the worst shot selection of any NBA player that I have ever seen. Truth be told I was a fan of his while watching his one yr at Michigan. I thought he was a big point guard at the time and I really thought the Bulls had a steal.

After watching him with the Bulls it was obvious that he was never going to be a guy you win with. Bad shot selection, terrible defense, low shooting percentage, tendency to always go one on one. The Bulls never could get anywhere near the playoffs with him.

He went to Knicks same thing. Guy that can light it up on losing ass teams. They tired of that act and bounced him too. He was in the league for about ten years before he made the playoffs. He has been essentially a journeyman during his career (6 teams) were the other five wrong too.

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Don't leave just because someone disagrees with you. That is what discussion and debate are about

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.