That series should not gone past 5 games. Look at how close those games were. One game went to overtime. There was a huge disparity in talent. There may be something to the theory that the players laid down in the playoffs. That should never happen. Anyone that watched the lack of adjustment made by Thibs had to go away thinking that something was wrong. Look at all of the long scoring droughts. Look at the number of times that they struggled to get shot off. His schemes were terrible. That's on him not the players.

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Let's talk defense.

How much of a decline will there be and will it be because of a coaching philosophy? I think the days of trying to win every possession at all cost are over. Maybe your best defensive unit is out on the court as often under Hoiberg.

What say you?

I think the defense will suffer somewhat. They will play faster which means both defensive and offensive scoring numbers will increase. I also think that Hoiberg will favor players that are more offensive minded. McDermott and Mirotic will never be top notch defenders. Snell has the potential to be serviceable defensively, but never all league caliber.

I don't think that you will see Hoiberg conceding defense for offense nearly as much as Thibs did. That means that Hinrich's minutes will be drastically cut. I think Taj. Gibson's role will change also. Hoiberg seems like he values guys that have a skill.

The roster was reconfigured by Paxson a yr ago. It was reconfigured in a way that valued offense more than defense. The signing of Gasol, drafting of McDermott, trading for Mirotic etc. They obviously believed that needed more scoring. I think that Thibs was going to always struggle with these types of players. They are not his types of players frankly.

The league is more of an offensive league these days. You have to have guys that can make plays on offense. I don't expect Noah's role or time court time to change much. You may see a 2-3 minute reduction, but he won't be reduced to playing half the game. I also don't expect him to come off the bench.

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I agree Thibs wears on his players. That's definitely something he has to work on with his next team. You don't want to be a mere Skiles +; you want to be able to get the best out of your players without eventually losing them as a result.

I don't agree Thibs has disappointing results. The most disappointing season Thibs had was the very last one, when his best players weren't knocked out with season ending injuries. Other than that, when did he not max out the talent on his roster?

Let's recap:

2010-11: Lost in ECF to Heat, a superior team. Thibs extracted all he could from this roster
2011-12: Lost to Philly in 1st round after losing Rose during the series; sans Rose, this team was probably second round fodder anyway
2012-13: Overachieved by losing to eventual champion Heat in 2nd round. They had no business being in the second round anyway with journeyman Nate Robinson being their most credible scoring threat when set plays broke down. Rose out all year; Thibs extracts all he could from this roster
2013-14: Lost to Wizards in first round, a better team. Rose out virtually all year; Thibs extracts all he could from this roster
2014-15: Lost to undermanned Cavs in 2nd round. Disappointing loss

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
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2013 CSFMB ROY

Shouldn't they have been able to beat Philly without Rose? It's true they would have been toast in the second round, but they should have got out of the first. They secured a #1 seed with Rose missing 40% of the season. The Rose injury gave Thibs a pass. They also should have defeated Cleveland this yr. The other yrs they were definitely outclassed by the Heat. I had no problem with those defeats. Washington was better also.

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I'm willing to give Thibs a pass on the Philly loss, it wouldn't have mattered anyway, they were going to be gone like you said. They entered the season with Rose healthy and then lost him for good in the midst of the series - obviously you're not prepared to lose someone like that so suddenly, and especially not in the playoffs. If I'm Thibs' boss that year I do not hold the loss against him given the circumstances.

If you agree with me on everything else, and it seems like you do, then you're essentially saying Thibs did all he could except for this past year.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I wasn't critical at the time for losing to Philly. Their season was done the second Rose went down. I'm speaking from a champion level perspective. They should have been able to get past Philly though.

I really only began to sour on Thibs this past yr. I began to sour on him because I realized how inflexible he was as a coach. He has certain tenets that he abides by which hinders him as a coach. The minutes thing didn't bother me because these are professional athletes, some of the best in the world.

I started souring on him when I realized that he was not good at developing young players, particularly rookies. I never thought for one second that McDermott would play a significant role. Injury or no injury he was not a Thibs kind of player. The same goes for Mirotic. Mirotic only began playing regularly once Taj was injured. Snell only began playing once his regulars became injured.

The Bulls underperformed last yr. Think about this for a minute. How many people on here could have predicted that Butler and Gasoline were going to turn in the seasons that they had last year? The Bulls were predicted to win between 55-60 games last yr without knowing that either of them would perform as they did. Some of that was predicated on Rose performing as an All Star, I 'll grant you, but their record should have been better given the seasons those two turned in
Thibs has to own some of that.

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I've been very clear that I'm a big Thibs fan. Always will be.

That said, I think his style probably lends itself better to an assistant coach role, like he was in Boston. After seeing him here, I have no doubt he had a HUGE role in Boston's championships.

This is currently a discussion in a baseball thread, but I think it's really applicable here... Thibs found himself in a perfect situation his first year with the Bulls. He had a young, impressionable team with a couple young leaders who (at the time) really bought into what he was selling. It absolutely worked. I don't think Thibs' style would work with a lot of teams... especially veteran teams who are basically riding out the regular season. It was a right place/right time thing.

Great tactician, great attention to detail, great message, great energy, great TWTW, poor flexibility, and poor communication with a wide variety of personalities and players. As an assistant with a good head coach, the latter two downfalls don't matter as much.

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So your argument for classifying Thibs as an elite coach is that his team overachieved in 2012-2013 and underachieved in 2014-2015? I apparently have a higher standard for the term elite. Who did they beat that they shouldn't have?

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No I wouldn't consider that as my criteria for classifying him as elite.

My recap of the seasons was to rebut your assertion that Thibs produced "disappointing" results. Given the roster and circumstances of Thibs' reign, I don't see disappointment anywhere except 2015. It's not like we're the Thunder with Durant and Westbrook but nothing to show for it - that would be disappointing.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Ok. That begs the question - what is your definition of an elite NBA coach? (Sorry I screwed up the quotes function).

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“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

There's Popovich and then everybody else. In my world, he's the only elite coach in the NBA. Your second tier can be debated.

Ehh... Tim Duncan helped a little bit. I'm not saying Popovich isn't one of the best coaches, but he has done it with one team. I wouldn't put him in a class of his own.

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In today's NBA? He's alone at the top of the mountain unless you think Riley is still the real coach of the Heat. And who knows, maybe in a year or two we add Kerr to the list.

As far as Duncan, he ruined Pitino's career in the league. I love him for it.

Going to bring in Leash's post here because it's relevant to my response to you.



Don't know if I agree here. To me what Thibs did was put the Bulls back on the map. Whatever his communication and management faults, and I agree he had many, he established minimum standards of excellence on the floor that all but guaranteed the Bulls would never underachieve. They were sort of an unknown under Vinny, but then under Thibs everyone knew what the Bulls were about. I think that Thibs next team will undergo a similar identity transformation, if one is necessary.

That turnaround/makeover kind of ability, to me, is what separates Thibs from coaches who are probably best suited to remain as assistants as opposed to head coaches. I think that's also what separates him from other good coaches who are hired from time to time but never make a mark on a team like Thibs did with the Bulls. That's where I find Thibs to be elite. I have no doubt if the Bulls had more talent around Rose in 2011, or going the other way, if LeBron wasn't in the East, we might be talking about, at least, a finals birth in 2011, and maybe another one in 2012 if Rose doesn't go down.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Vegan - I would use a different term to describe Thibs - "unique". I agree with pretty much everything you said. Thibs changed the culture, and what he did will probably be felt within the Bulls organization for a long time. I don't know whether he's "elite", but he's definitely a damn good coach. I think it just takes a little something different to win it all. It may even be an apples and oranges argument. Phil Jackson might be great at getting a team over the top but awful at changing a culture (actually, I think that's probably true as evidenced by his "leadership" role in New York). I guess at the end of the day, it's a subjective, semantical argument. Thibs was a damn good coach, though. That can't be disputed.

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Yes Popovich has Tim Duncan, but Popovich is elite because of a few more reasons other than simply having Tim Duncan.

Popovich has won championships playing a defensive oriented style of ball, and Popovich has one playing an offensive style of ball.

Popovich has won championships with Avery Johnson and Bruce Bowen in his starting lineup. Danny Ferry somewhere in the mix.

Popovich has won championships when he had to go through Kobe and Shaq in their prime, not to mention the great Phil Jackson.

He has won a number of series in which his team was an underdog going in.

Popovich is the reason that the topic of minutes and resting players is even discussed.

The Spurs were not the preseason favorite to win the Championship in any of the yrs that they have won the championship.

Popovich has transformed his team's identity without ever having a losing season. They have evolved from the grind it style of the Avery Johnson/Bruce Bowen yrs into an offensive juggernaut during the Tony Parker and Ginobili yrs.

Look at some of the starting lineups of his earlier championship teams.

If that's not elite I don't know what is.

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I think that's fair, though he wasn't too far from winning it all in 2011. I mean given all the faults we've talked about, he still came within three games of the finals.

This is not in response to something you've said, or even any topic in the thread, but in general I'm wary of ascribing sort of mystical characteristics to coaches one second after they've won it all in whatever league. For example, say the Bulls and Thunder face off in the finals. Donovan and Hoiberg, by virtue of making the finals in the first place, come off as highly regarded NBA coaches. Say the Thunder win it all in six or seven games. Now Donovan has won it all - does that necessarily make him a *better* coach than Hoiberg, even though they came into the finals as equals? And since he's won it all, does he have "something" that Hoiberg doesn't, "something" being the essential ingredient to winning it all? Not really, to me. Moving over to the NFL, I'm probably ranking the Bills coach who lost four straight Superbowls higher than someone like Ditka who actually won it all. Once you get to the big stage, I don't think losing means you're necessarily a lesser coach than the guy on the other side.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
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2013 CSFMB ROY

To expound on your point a little further; that's why I rank Thibodeau over guys like Eric Spoestra. He's been to four straight finals and won two of them. He is not a better coach than Thibs in my opinion.

Guys such as Rivers are though. That first round series against San Antonio this yr was possibly the best played and best coached series of the playoffs. It was a virtual chess match between Rivers and Popovich. Rivers showed in thar series that he was nearly the equal of Popovich as a coach. He gets it done. I didn't like him early in his coaching career, but I have come to regard him as one of the better coaches in the league.

In terms of player development, both Jordan and Griffin have become better players under his tutelage.

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If it is a pick'em situation or very little disparity in talent no, but if your team is heavily favored and you lose, then yes the coach should be called on it. For instance Phil Jackson losing to Detroit during the finals took a little luster off his legacy for me and it cemented the greatness of Larry Brown. The Lakers were heavily favored during that series and yet Detroit destroyed them. Brown has to get credit for outcoaching Jackson. If you look at last yrs finals, I wouldn't say that Kerr is a better coach than Blatt simply by virtue of winning. He was supposed to win given the wide disparity in talent.

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Watching Portis during summer league (I know it's summer league) I was surprised with his shooting range. Of course he may still bust out, but he is far and away more offensively skilled than Thomas ever was. He handles the ball better and has a jump shot. Tyrus, unfortunately for us, was Stromile Swift. I never felt comfortable when Thomas decided it was his turn on offense.

That wasn't my scouting report. That scouting report came from noted messge board scribe and basketball guru IMU. He stated that Bobby Portis was Tyrus Thomas 2.0 and the scouting reports on both players were virtually identical.

I see absolutely nothing in Bobby Portis that suggests that he will be Tyrus Thomas. He is heavier, more physical, less athletic, more skilled, and has a much higher motor than Tyrus Thomas ever had. He is also about an inch or two taller. Thomas was more explosive athletically and that was about it. He was quicker also. Portis plays below the rim and looks like he may struggle against length. Thomas struggled against physicality and was generally an indifferent basketball player. He also was a bit of a tweener.

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Yeah I knew those weren't your thoughts on Portis. I was guilty of falling in love with Thomas' athletic ability, especially during that first pre-season with the Bull. It's amazing he stayed in the league as long as he did.

Thomas was not a Paxson type of draft pick. That is what made the pick baffling for me. There were three guys that I would have taken in front of him. It would not have even been a second thought. The three were Brandon Roy, whom I believed to be the best player in the draft. Second after Roy was Aldridge, and third was Rudy Gay. All three were decidely better than Thomas and in Rudy Gay's case he was both a superior athlete and a better player.

Paxson usually doesn't go for "upside" guys, which Thomas was advertised to be. Thomas wasn't even freakishly athletic either. He was an above average athlete, but he wasn't the touch the top of the square type leaper. That draft pick is definitely a pock mark on the guys record.

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LSU's run that year probably made Thomas & Davis appear to be much better than they actually were.

Just tuned in.

The new look court is looking sweet in HD. And how about Bairistow? He can bend his knees this year.

exhibition games dont matter

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

I know it's pre-season so nobody is watching ,(looking at you Don Tiny) but McDermott and Bobby Portis are playing really well.

Doug is showing why he was traded for and this Portis kid, man he's light years ahead of where Tyrus Thomas ever was on the offensive end. Also, it sure seems like the players are enjoying the short time they've spent under Holberg's watch. Here's hoping there's more than an 8 man rotation during the regular season. I'd like to see a Bulls team with some legs left heading into the Spring.

My Guy!!!!

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2018
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10 More Wins