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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:48 am 
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That game was unbelievable! Go Kansas City Royals!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:00 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Hosmer made a sensational play in the 3rd or 4th that Abreu has never even dreamt about.


How often does that happen? And when it does, how often does it have an actual effect on the outcome of the game? When we're talking about first base defense, it's inevitably as a way to prop up an inferior hitter at a hitting position. And it just doesn't work. Hosmer could make two plays a game that Abreu doesn't (that could never actually happen, by the way) and it still wouldn't come close to covering the difference in Abreu's bat.

Anyway, Hosmer's great play is a small sample. Come on guy! Stay SABRmetric!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:05 am 
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WAR: Hosmer 3.5
Abreu 3.0

DO.YOU.EVEN.WATCH??

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:10 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
WAR: Hosmer 3.5
Abreu 3.0

DO.YOU.EVEN.WATCH??


:lol: Abreu has higher WAR in two seasons than Hosmer has compiled in five. I guess that sparkling defense isn't helping too much!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:18 am 
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He's just maturing.

seriously. a hit saved is a hit earned.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:24 am 
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love quick scoops of lasers at corners. bang bang.

does WAR 1B defense calculation factor picking throws and stretching to shorten throws?

if i designed the calc I'd say that has to be at least 75% of the D equation.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:27 am 
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I think the latter but not the former.

LOL. I mean former but not latter.

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Last edited by Hatchetman on Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:30 am 
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If anything Jorr, that error is a counterpoint to your theory. Hosmer error almost cost them the game.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:39 am 
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312player wrote:
If anything Jorr, that error is a counterpoint to your theory. Hosmer error almost cost them the game.


You're making my point. Hosmer is supposed to be good. The point is, the difference between the best first base defender and the worst is no factor. Stop looking at a tiny sample.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:41 am 
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that entire game turned on defensive plays and you say defense doesn't matter.

Abreu strikes out a shit load too, that doesn't mean he's not a good hitter.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:45 am 
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Im not even sure what your trying to say, Errors at any position are bad.. Agreed?

Or are you saying- What's the point of having a great glove- weak bat if they wet the bed in the biggest game of the year?
Like Alex Gonzalez from the Cubs.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:55 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
that entire game turned on defensive plays and you say defense doesn't matter.

Abreu strikes out a shit load too, that doesn't mean he's not a good hitter.

jorr saying defense at 1st doensn't matter.

gotta disagree there. i would've thought a guy who watches alexei ramirez throw to 1B everyday would think 1b D is important.

starlin castro certainly taught me the importance of good glovework at 1b. kris bryant only reinforced the need.

also, hosmer is pretty good with the stick and 2 years (at least) younger than abreu.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:59 am 
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Hosmer handled the ball 1366 times. do I want to give some butcher 1366 chances to fuck up? no I do not.

I think 1B defense is tremendously important.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:01 pm 
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I saw two and possibly three plays last night that Abreu doesn't make. Jorr has said stolen bases are meaningless as well ... Stolen bases have been huge this post season. Abreu is a much better bat than Hosmer.. No doubt .. But he's a DH and will hurt ya bad with that glove and lack of range.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:01 pm 
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Hypothetical Jose Abreu sucks!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:01 pm 
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i went to bed knowing the mets were fucked, and sure enough when i caught the score this morning on the ESPN bottom line i was basically like "yeah i want the mets to win but i know the royals won" so when i saw 5-4 KC F/14 i was just like "mm-hmm"

degrom is vulnerable in the first inning, as cubs fans can attest to. if the royals get 1-3 quick runs in the first i think they're favorite to go up 2-0, cuz the mets got their big run off of herrera/that-error and familia couldn't close it out. i was saying all those 4-6 out saves would eventually take their toll on him, and what a shitty time for it to happen to the mets.... they got a run off of herrera/davis to win the game and they didnt.... that's going to haunt them later in this series mark my words.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:20 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
that entire game turned on defensive plays and you say defense doesn't matter.


I've never made any such statement. I said- because it's an incontrovertible fact- that the difference between the greatest first base defender of all-time and the worst is so small that its effect is negligible and generally not worth discussion. Of course you can single out errors by awkward first basemen and try to use that as evidence to support your point that first base defense is critical.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:22 pm 
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312player wrote:
Im not even sure what your trying to say, Errors at any position are bad.. Agreed?

Or are you saying- What's the point of having a great glove- weak bat if they wet the bed in the biggest game of the year?
Like Alex Gonzalez from the Cubs.


Are you chalking up a guy's entire career to a single play? That's ridiculous. Gonzales was a good defender at a position where defense is critical.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:30 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
that entire game turned on defensive plays and you say defense doesn't matter.


I've never made any such statement. I said- because it's an incontrovertible fact- that the difference between the greatest first base defender of all-time and the worst is so small that its effect is negligible and generally not worth discussion. Of course you can single out errors by awkward first basemen and try to use that as evidence to support your point that first base defense is critical.



It's incontrovertible fact that you've lost your mind. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:52 pm 
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Dewan has range on 1B defense about 30 runs

Fangraphs is about 14, compared to at 2B they have about 20.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:55 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Dewan has range on 1B defense about 30 runs

Fangraphs is about 14, compared to at 2B they have about 20.


Do you really believe the difference between Jim Spencer and Dick Stuart is thirty runs over the course of 162 games? That's actually absurd.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:58 pm 
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I'm not sure what the actual number is, but somewhere in that 15-25 runs/year sounds reasonable to me. dewan's thought about it way more than me.

Look, the 1B is responsible for his area of the field. why are balls hit in his area less important than balls hit in someone else's area?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:06 pm 
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sinicalypse wrote:
i went to bed knowing the mets were fucked, and sure enough when i caught the score this morning on the ESPN bottom line i was basically like "yeah i want the mets to win but i know the royals won" so when i saw 5-4 KC F/14 i was just like "mm-hmm"

degrom is vulnerable in the first inning, as cubs fans can attest to. if the royals get 1-3 quick runs in the first i think they're favorite to go up 2-0, cuz the mets got their big run off of herrera/that-error and familia couldn't close it out. i was saying all those 4-6 out saves would eventually take their toll on him, and what a shitty time for it to happen to the mets.... they got a run off of herrera/davis to win the game and they didnt.... that's going to haunt them later in this series mark my words.


I think tired players will not be able to manipulate de Grom this first inning

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:02 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Im not even sure what your trying to say, Errors at any position are bad.. Agreed?

Or are you saying- What's the point of having a great glove- weak bat if they wet the bed in the biggest game of the year?
Like Alex Gonzalez from the Cubs.


Are you chalking up a guy's entire career to a single play? That's ridiculous. Gonzales was a good defender at a position where defense is critical.

Red Sox fans did with Buckner.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:22 pm 
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Buckner is a decent analogy, he choked like Gonzalez and I will forever hate Gonzalez. But Buckner was a much better player.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Red Sox fans did with Buckner.


Because a majority of them are mentally ill.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:40 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
I'm not sure what the actual number is, but somewhere in that 15-25 runs/year sounds reasonable to me. dewan's thought about it way more than me.

Look, the 1B is responsible for his area of the field. why are balls hit in his area less important than balls hit in someone else's area?


I respect Dewan and his research, but having said that, I'm always suspicious of any "stat" that measures theoretical "runs".

It's not that balls hit to the first baseman's area of the field are any more or less important than balls hit anywhere else. It's that there aren't as many of them and the quality of those batted balls is different. Most chances a first baseman handles are throws directly to him from other infielders. And all first basemen scoop balls out of the dirt, even the worst of them. Of course, there are guys that are better at it than others, but the instances where it is necessary and the importance of being able to do so is minimal when compared to other things.

It's the nature of the position. Teams have to get their offense somewhere. The game is about pitching which is the same thing as saying it's about hitting. That's why you suffer with the slight cost of lesser defense from Lamar Johnson rather than running Jim Spencer out there everyday. The offensive upside is so much greater than the defensive downside. And almost every team has hitters it wants in the lineup. In the AL you can DH one of those guys. In the NL you have to put him on the field. They usually go to first base or left field.

That's why there's so much talk about Schwarber. You yourself have declared him a Hall of Famer. If that's going to turn out to be the case, he's gotta play somewhere. He doesn't look so sporty in left. But the truth is, if Schwaber is the offensive player you believe he is, you'd put him in left over Alex Gordon every day of the week. And Gordon is as good as a left fielder gets. If you're any better than he is, you're a center fielder.

You have to look at the other guys playing the position. Sure, it's nice to have Wally Joyner at first. But if you do, you're always looking for a guy who is going to give you more offense (and that usually comes with less defense) so you can replace him. For what a first baseman has to do defensively, there simply isn't enough difference between the best and the worst. Compare that to a position like short where you could never get away with playing Kris Bryant at short over the long term because the difference between him and Jhonny Peralta is just too great defensively, let alone Addison Russell or Andrelton Simmons. Although Bryant is enough of an athlete that he could probably hide at short for awhile and his hitting at that position would definitely make him a perennial All-Star and likely Hall of Fame candidate.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:00 pm 
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I don't think we'll ever come to agreement on this. For example, Abreu handles 1200 balls thrown to him or hit to him, whatever. not even including pickoffs. do you think a Keith Hernandez type makes 10 more plays out of 1200? whether it be grounders, double plays, outs at home, balls in the dirt? 10 plays?

10 hits is the difference between a .280 hitter and a .300 hitter. Is a .280 good? yeah, pretty good, but I'd rather have a .300 hitter!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:04 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
I don't think we'll ever come to agreement on this. For example, Abreu handles 1200 balls thrown to him or hit to him, whatever. not even including pickoffs. do you think a Keith Hernandez type makes 10 more plays out of 1200? whether it be grounders, double plays, outs at home, balls in the dirt? 10 plays?


Probably. Maybe more than that. But out of the difference- whatever it is- a minimal amount are going to have a direct effect on the outcome of the game. And whatever difference it is is outweighed by the fact that Abreu hits three times as many home runs as Hernandez.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:09 pm 
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yeah, but hernandez walked 100 times more than Abreu :lol:

i'll take hernandez and watch the beauty of a well turned 3-6-1 double play.

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