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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:19 am 
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312player wrote:
Carr, Cousins, Bridgewater all 2nd rounders I believe.


Not sure about everyone on that list but just goes to show in general that you don't have to have a top 5 pick to find a QB you can win with.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:36 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The problem with Jay Cutler is that he is the worst possible quarterback to have. That isn't hyperbole either. There is a reason that no quarterback with his level of production is still on the same team for this long. The closest is probably Tony Romo, but Romo is at a higher tier than Cutler. The results haven't been great for them either. Joe Flacco may be getting there but he won a ring at the right time.

Last year, they were just good enough to not be able to get Mariota or Winston who may fail or may end up being franchise quarterbacks. This year, they almost certainly will miss out on one of the top two quarterbacks. This puts them in the terrible position of playing the later round quarterback lottery or reaching in the second round for a guy that no one thinks will be good but will cost a high draft pick. Then, next year, Cutler will return, and the Bears probably are good enough with him to go 7-9 or 8-8 and the cycle repeats again.

He is now a .500 quarterback for his career, and only 3 games above .500 as a Bear. Now, I'm not putting that all on him but it also goes to show that having him has not really resulted in anything worth celebrating whether it is his fault or not.

It's not a whole lot different than the current Forte situation. Forte is a productive player. He just doesn't really fit with the future of the Bears and the Bears probably need to try something new. The way out is easier for Forte though, which is to either let him walk or sign him to a discounted contract if Forte is willing after he sees his options. The Bears are locked into the Cutler contract for another year unless Gase is willing to make the decision to finally do a true rebuild.

There just comes a time when you realize that a player is not ever going to work out here. All they are doing is delaying the start of the next era of Bears football so they can keep on being a team with a ceiling of .500. Hopefully a team is willing to trade for Cutler this year and take a one year flyer on him.


Cutler keeping the Bears in the middle of the pack (i.e. NFL hell or what have you) is I think a good counterargument to the idea of keeping him because he's decent. But unlike the NBA I don't think you need to tank a season just to position yourself to draft a top 5 prospect. You can find gold anywhere in the draft, even at QB. Check out the draft positions of some recent SB winning QBs:

Brady: 6th round (will concede this as an anomaly)
P. Manning: 1st pick
E. Manning: 1st pick
Flacco: 18th pick
Roethlisberger: 11th pick
Wilson: 3rd round
Brees: 2nd round
Rodgers: 24th pick

And in any case I'm not for the Bears keeping Cutler, I'm just for them employing a competent QB if they're unable to acquire an elite one in a trade or something. It just so happens that Cutler is that competent QB for now. As soon as they find one available in the draft or free agency, they should absolutely pull the trigger.
I agree you don't need a top 5 pick to get a franchise changing quarterback. It just makes it more likely. I'd rather be picking the first or second best rated quarterback than the fourth best rated. The fourth best rated may end up being the best but with quarterbacks it really is about percentages and playing the percentages.

The biggest problem though is that when having Cutler the Bears don't even try to find the next one. I guess we'll see what they do this year though before I throw Gase in the group. If I had to make a prediction now though, it's that he is going to roll with a third or fourth round pick of a quarterback which means they get someone that probably sucks or at least needs to sit for a few years to improve the flaws they have.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:38 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
312player wrote:
Carr, Cousins, Bridgewater all 2nd rounders I believe.


Not sure about everyone on that list but just goes to show in general that you don't have to have a top 5 pick to find a QB you can win with.


Agreed, though I would say a top-5 pick gets you someone who can/should make immediate impact, while someone taken in later rounds can have just as high a ceiling but may take a year or two to develop--which makes the Bears' lack of QB drafting that much more frustrating.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:17 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:

Agreed, though I would say a top-5 pick gets you someone who can/should make immediate impact, while someone taken in later rounds can have just as high a ceiling but may take a year or two to develop--which makes the Bears' lack of QB drafting that much more frustrating.


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I agree you don't need a top 5 pick to get a franchise changing quarterback. It just makes it more likely. I'd rather be picking the first or second best rated quarterback than the fourth best rated. The fourth best rated may end up being the best but with quarterbacks it really is about percentages and playing the percentages.



Not sure about this anymore. Check out this list of QBs drafted in the top 10 over the past 20 years. I've arranged them into highly complex categories I came up with myself: good, bad, and we'll see/whatever

Good:

1: Luck
1: Newton
1: Stafford
3: Ryan
1: E. Manning
4: Rivers
1: Palmer
1: Vick

We'll see/whatever:
2: Griffin
8: Tannehill
1: Smith
3: McNair
3: Bortles

Bad:
8: Locker
10: Gabbert
1: Bradford
5: Sanchez
1: Russell
3: Young
10: Leinart
7: Leftwich
1: Carr
3: Harrington
1: Couch
3: Smith
2: Leaf
5: Collins

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:22 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:

Agreed, though I would say a top-5 pick gets you someone who can/should make immediate impact, while someone taken in later rounds can have just as high a ceiling but may take a year or two to develop--which makes the Bears' lack of QB drafting that much more frustrating.


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I agree you don't need a top 5 pick to get a franchise changing quarterback. It just makes it more likely. I'd rather be picking the first or second best rated quarterback than the fourth best rated. The fourth best rated may end up being the best but with quarterbacks it really is about percentages and playing the percentages.



Not sure about this anymore. Check out this list of QBs drafted in the top 10 over the past 20 years. I've arranged them into highly complex categories I came up with myself: good, bad, and we'll see/whatever

Good:

1: Luck
1: Newton
1: Stafford
3: Ryan
1: E. Manning
4: Rivers
1: Palmer
1: Vick

We'll see/whatever:
2: Griffin
8: Tannehill
1: Smith
3: McNair
3: Bortles

Bad:
8: Locker
10: Gabbert
1: Bradford
5: Sanchez
1: Russell
3: Young
10: Leinart
7: Leftwich
1: Carr
3: Harrington
1: Couch
3: Smith
2: Leaf
5: Collins
The percentages get much worse as you move down though, with it becoming incredibly low after round 2 is over.

Drafting a quarterback is just a lottery ticket, and the higher you pick the better your chances of winning. Many will fail but I'll take my chances with a better chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:30 pm 
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Some guys like David Carr would've been great had they not been thrown to the wolves. Some guys who have what it takes wind up on bad teams (like the Bears) and fizzle out or get killed.


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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:50 pm 
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Steve McNair was definitely good. You're foolish vegan. Or are we still waiting to see if he will be good?

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:59 pm 
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McNair was great, borderline hof.

Many times not having that top 5 pick saves you from drafting a bum. The Bears really fucked up by not letting Cutler walk and keeping Mccown for peanuts while drafting a guy like Carr or Teddy or Cousins in the 2nd round.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:01 pm 
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Vegan probably meant E.J. Manual not McNair. And I'd like Manual here. Taylor took his job in Buffalo.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:01 pm 
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Bridgewater wouldn't have been there, and Cousins was drafted in 2012.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:34 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Steve McNair was definitely good. You're foolish vegan. Or are we still waiting to see if he will be good?


:lol: :lol:

312player wrote:
Vegan probably meant E.J. Manual not McNair. And I'd like Manual here. Taylor took his job in Buffalo.


No, that was McNair. Unless Manual was a top 10 pick and I missed him, he's deliberately not on the list.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Drafting a quarterback is just a lottery ticket, and the higher you pick the better your chances of winning. Many will fail but I'll take my chances with a better chance.


I agree on a lottery ticket, but in some ways that can also describe the NFL playoffs. I don't believe the "best team" is the team that won the SB. Teams who win the SB do so because of a combination of talent, depth, health, and luck. If the playoffs are winnable for a well-balanced team led by a moderately talented QB, why not ride with him instead of playing the odds by tanking to get a top 5 pick? I'd only strive for a no 1 pick if a can't miss prospect was available.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:30 pm 
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Its unfortunate the Bears had to have Brandon fuckin Bolden instead of Cousins or Kyle Fuller and Ego Ferguson over Carr or Bridgewater.. If your current QB is Jay Cutler . you draft a qb until you have the right guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:32 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
I agree on a lottery ticket, but in some ways that can also describe the NFL playoffs. I don't believe the "best team" is the team that won the SB. Teams who win the SB do so because of a combination of talent, depth, health, and luck. If the playoffs are winnable for a well-balanced team led by a moderately talented QB, why not ride with him instead of playing the odds by tanking to get a top 5 pick? I'd only strive for a no 1 pick if a can't miss prospect was available.
Because it hasn't worked. Jay Cutler is a career .500 quarterback and his record with the Bears is trending towards that too. The Grossman/Orton era had a much higher winning percentage. It's all about what is being given up. If we were the Chiefs then we'd roll with an average quarterback because it is working.

The major issue here seems to be that the production of Cutler is seemingly turning the Bears from a 4 win team to a 5-7 win team. Even if we think Jay Cutler is a great quarterback, it isn't worth continuing that and expecting that suddenly it all clicks and they become an 11 win team. I mean, any team in the NFL can win 11 games in a fluke season, but it's not worth hoping you are the team that gets extremely lucky and does it.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:20 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I agree on a lottery ticket, but in some ways that can also describe the NFL playoffs. I don't believe the "best team" is the team that won the SB. Teams who win the SB do so because of a combination of talent, depth, health, and luck. If the playoffs are winnable for a well-balanced team led by a moderately talented QB, why not ride with him instead of playing the odds by tanking to get a top 5 pick? I'd only strive for a no 1 pick if a can't miss prospect was available.
Because it hasn't worked. Jay Cutler is a career .500 quarterback and his record with the Bears is trending towards that too. The Grossman/Orton era had a much higher winning percentage. It's all about what is being given up. If we were the Chiefs then we'd roll with an average quarterback because it is working.

The major issue here seems to be that the production of Cutler is seemingly turning the Bears from a 4 win team to a 5-7 win team. Even if we think Jay Cutler is a great quarterback, it isn't worth continuing that and expecting that suddenly it all clicks and they become an 11 win team. I mean, any team in the NFL can win 11 games in a fluke season, but it's not worth hoping you are the team that gets extremely lucky and does it.


I'm not advocating for keeping Cutler, just that to switch up things at QB doesn't require a "rebuild" MLB or NBA style. Maybe I have misunderstood your position, but thus far to me I think you're saying not only get rid of Cutler but sell off older players, even if still productive, lose to grab a high pick, and start young across the board. I wouldn't do any of that except get rid of Cutler for someone not named Todd Collins, Jimmy Clausen, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:28 am 
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much as cutler sucks, give him a top 5 defense and you can probably get to the NFC title game. wee!

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:31 am 
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McNair was Co-MVP one year


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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:33 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
I'm not advocating for keeping Cutler, just that to switch up things at QB doesn't require a "rebuild" MLB or NBA style. Maybe I have misunderstood your position, but thus far to me I think you're saying not only get rid of Cutler but sell off older players, even if still productive, lose to grab a high pick, and start young across the board. I wouldn't do any of that except get rid of Cutler for someone not named Todd Collins, Jimmy Clausen, etc.
The Bears aren't a good team right now. They need a true rebuilding year. I'm not saying you start from scratch but they also aren't on a championship trajectory.

I don't think they should cut everyone over the age of 26 but they also need to stop trying the same thing over and over again.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:59 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Steve McNair was definitely good. You're foolish vegan. Or are we still waiting to see if he will be good?


he's got a shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:29 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The Bears aren't a good team right now. They need a true rebuilding year. I'm not saying you start from scratch but they also aren't on a championship trajectory.

I don't think they should cut everyone over the age of 26 but they also need to stop trying the same thing over and over again.


The Bears to me are not trying the same thing over and over. They are entering year two of new GM, scouting, coaching etc. You cannot blame any of the previous stuff you did not like on them. Everyone knows how you stand. You hate Cutler and his contract and will never say a positive thing about them. I am not sure why you even argue in these Cutler related threads anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:46 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
McNair was Co-MVP one year


We'll he is in my "we'll see" category, so technically I'm not wrong. :D

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I'm not advocating for keeping Cutler, just that to switch up things at QB doesn't require a "rebuild" MLB or NBA style. Maybe I have misunderstood your position, but thus far to me I think you're saying not only get rid of Cutler but sell off older players, even if still productive, lose to grab a high pick, and start young across the board. I wouldn't do any of that except get rid of Cutler for someone not named Todd Collins, Jimmy Clausen, etc.


The Bears aren't a good team right now. They need a true rebuilding year. I'm not saying you start from scratch but they also aren't on a championship trajectory.

I don't think they should cut everyone over the age of 26 but they also need to stop trying the same thing over and over again.


Agreed in general, though I'm still not sure by what is meant by rebuilding. I think any team is a contender if they've got depth, are coached well, and have one or two difference-making players at key skill positions, like RB and definitely QB. An example here would be Arizona, even though Palmer at his age is probably not a difference-maker, but the team represents the possibility of being a contender even without a stud QB. So I absolutely think the Bears could be in the mix next year if White validates his draft slot, you get a new QB who can move the ball down the field, and Pace infuses the team with talent that can play effectively and play right away via the draft and free agency.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:15 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
The Bears to me are not trying the same thing over and over. They are entering year two of new GM, scouting, coaching etc. You cannot blame any of the previous stuff you did not like on them. Everyone knows how you stand. You hate Cutler and his contract and will never say a positive thing about them. I am not sure why you even argue in these Cutler related threads anymore.
I'm not seeing them acting any differently than the previous couple regimes. That may change though.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:57 pm 
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spanky wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
In the "best year of his career" and one in which his OC is getting HC opportunities for turning him around, he is the 17th ranked passer going into today's game. It's likely lower after today. Don't want him.

You see the list of QB's that started today?
Yikes....

But most of them are cheaper than Jay!!!








You stupid prick, fuck you and I hope you get cancer of the nuts for your awful sports thoughts.


Bump...fuck most of you, not named boilermakerrick

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:31 pm 
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312player wrote:
spanky wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
In the "best year of his career" and one in which his OC is getting HC opportunities for turning him around, he is the 17th ranked passer going into today's game. It's likely lower after today. Don't want him.

You see the list of QB's that started today?
Yikes....

But most of them are cheaper than Jay!!!








You stupid prick, fuck you and I hope you get cancer of the nuts for your awful sports thoughts.


Bump...fuck most of you, not named boilermakerrick
You're my guy!

Any pro-Cutler guys left?

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:05 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
312player wrote:
spanky wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
In the "best year of his career" and one in which his OC is getting HC opportunities for turning him around, he is the 17th ranked passer going into today's game. It's likely lower after today. Don't want him.

You see the list of QB's that started today?
Yikes....

But most of them are cheaper than Jay!!!








You stupid prick, fuck you and I hope you get cancer of the nuts for your awful sports thoughts.


Bump...fuck most of you, not named boilermakerrick
You're my guy!

Any pro-Cutler guys left?


FF
Kirkwood
Zeph

That's probably it.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:19 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
312player wrote:
spanky wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
In the "best year of his career" and one in which his OC is getting HC opportunities for turning him around, he is the 17th ranked passer going into today's game. It's likely lower after today. Don't want him.

You see the list of QB's that started today?
Yikes....

But most of them are cheaper than Jay!!!








You stupid prick, fuck you and I hope you get cancer of the nuts for your awful sports thoughts.


Bump...fuck most of you, not named boilermakerrick
You're my guy!

Any pro-Cutler guys left?


FF
Kirkwood
Zeph

That's probably it.
Spany?

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:25 pm 
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Jay may be better than Case Keenum and whatever future insurance salesman is playing for the Browns.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:29 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
312player wrote:
spanky wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
In the "best year of his career" and one in which his OC is getting HC opportunities for turning him around, he is the 17th ranked passer going into today's game. It's likely lower after today. Don't want him.

You see the list of QB's that started today?
Yikes....

But most of them are cheaper than Jay!!!








You stupid prick, fuck you and I hope you get cancer of the nuts for your awful sports thoughts.


Bump...fuck most of you, not named boilermakerrick
You're my guy!

Any pro-Cutler guys left?


FF
Kirkwood
Zeph

That's probably it.
Spany?


He's gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:56 pm 
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Im not pro or anti Cutler. I literally do not care.

Thats probably worse than anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:50 pm
Posts: 16078
pizza_Place: Malnati's
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
312player wrote:
spanky wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
In the "best year of his career" and one in which his OC is getting HC opportunities for turning him around, he is the 17th ranked passer going into today's game. It's likely lower after today. Don't want him.

You see the list of QB's that started today?
Yikes....

But most of them are cheaper than Jay!!!








You stupid prick, fuck you and I hope you get cancer of the nuts for your awful sports thoughts.


Bump...fuck most of you, not named boilermakerrick
You're my guy!

Any pro-Cutler guys left?


Good Dolphin and RFDC

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 Post subject: Re: Jay Cutler
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:21 pm 
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Location: Darkside Estates
pizza_Place: A cat got an online degree.
What a fucking loser.

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http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014
bigfan wrote:
Many that is true, but an incomplete statement.


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