I'm not saying he is similar to those two guys. What I'm demonstrating is that offense outweighs defense in the NBA.

Kyle Korner made the All Star team last yr. Who in the hell has he ever stopped?

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Some of the stats you quote are meaningless. The Bulls are winning at about 33% clip since Moore has played more and Gibson has started yet you quote the plus minus of McDermott to illustrate that he is not good. Lacks consistency. Plus/minus is one of these weaker stats too.

Butler was 5-18 last game yet he contributed mightily to their win and McDermott didnt?

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Stephen Curry has a +13.9 this season.

In the three games he missed, the Warriors were a -15 altogether, or -5 per game.

James Harden is overrated. I argue against him being a good basketball player.

Oh wait, I don't have to argue it.

His +/- is +0.7 for the season. Last year he was a +4.1. Not exactly stellar.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

His team won 56 or 57 games last season. That is the only +/- Stat that matters. He also was by far their best player.

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I feel you really don't understand +/-. I'm not sure you know what it is at all. I'm not sure you understand that the opposing team can also score points.

So let's open your world. If your team allows the opposing team to score points, they offset the points your team scores. And whoever is left on the positive side of point differential is awarded a "win."

And STOP making up your stupid ass lies. How can you spit that shit out so easily when you know it is so easily refuted?

The Bulls are 12-15 when Moore plays 20 or more minutes. 6-6 when he plays 30 or more minutes. 6-8 when he plays 15 or fewer minutes.

If one is trying to make a statement about E'Twaun Moore...at worst you're saying he has no affect on a game whatsoever. Positive or negative.

The games he didn't play in? That was a fully healthy Bulls team. And yes, a fully healthy Bulls team is better than this Bulls team. But you and I both know that a healthy Bulls team would not include E'Twaun Moore in the main rotation of players.

edit:


McDermott was a +1. Do you know how sad it is to score 29 points and the leading scorer on your team and only be a +1 in a win?

Butler didn't play well last night. With that being his second game in six weeks, I'm not too upset.

This is why we judge players on more than just one game.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I will check for verification, but to prove their idiocy of your plus minus stat.

You are basically arguing that winning 57 games is less valuable than a + 4.1 plus minus stat.

That is what you are arguing. The mere fact that you neglect to mention 57 wins yet mention 4.1 plus minus is illustrative of this.

I know there Bulls were 10-20 since about Jan 7. That's around them time Moore began playing. They were a much better team when he wasn't playing. That's a fact.

Also who has Kyle Korver ever stopped? He made the all star team last season.

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You're right. I'm sure you will provide the plus/minus from this game too. For the sake of consistency if nothing else.

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Stacey King has begun to zone in on this ball stopping stuff with Jimmy Butler. He harps on it every game the guy plays these days. He bemoans the lack of ball movement whenever Butler is out there.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Here is why many of the so called credible posters lack credibility.

Imu can spew stupid shit, as he does all day long and not a peep. Stone silence. I could cite a lot of the dumb shit that he says. I have. I have never heard you comment on any of it. NOthing. Never a counter argument ever. Let me get one stat wrong and here you come. Have some posting integrity if there is such a thing. Its way too predictable, tedious, and frankly boring.

I guarantee that you haven't checked to verify his silly ass stat either. Gospel truth in an endless game of gotcha. When i'm right which I often am I don't here shit from the so called credible gallery. Conversely when there is dumb shit posted by so called credible posters you guys swallow the whistle. That's why you have no credibility.

I just called it earlier in the post. Same silly bullshit. Its not whining but where I come from we call bullshit for what it is. All I have to do is conduct a simple search and I guarantee that I wont find many instances where you disagree. That's no accident. You lack credibility and it weakens many of your arguments. When I am correct as I often am there is either silence, ignorance, or personal attacks. The shit is getting rather old.

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After reading this post, I have no idea why people wouldn't take to you immediately.

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And you don't stop to think "what if I'm the one spewing the stupid shit?"

People aren't going to call me out for stupid shit if I'm not saying stupid shit. You're alone in your arguments because you're wrong.

When FF or Vegan or whoever disagrees with me, they post as much. FavreFan has done it several times in the last two weeks. Bagels also has disagreed with me on something this week.

Why should they come to your defense when you post stupid shit.

And then you try to lump Doug McDermott in with Stephen Curry? Are you serious?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Only a third grader would think that was what I was attempting to do. You stated something about defense and stopper and I pointed out that the two guys that finished 1-2 are two of the worst defenders in the league. You keep harping on the importance of defense. Tyson Chandler will never be MVP so how important is it? Its important but if McDermott can score 18 a game then it may offset that.

I also listed Kyle korver who is probably as bad a defender as McDermott yet made the all star team. It was ignored.

Stated how McDermott is playing better and obviously has shown that he can play in the NBA. Its not even a question. He dropped 20 tonight after dropping 29 the other night. Ignored.

You implied that James Harden's plus minus was more important than the 57 wins that he helped generate last year. This was stupid as hell and no one commented on it but me. Stupid as hell. No comment.

You also stated that the Bulls would be better off with Michael Carter Williams. Michael Carter Williams. Dumb as shit. Few commented. I remember FF coming out against it. WHo in the hell wants Michael Carter Williams?

Portis/Thomas
Taj Gibson is playing better than Noah when Noah was healthy. Stupid as shit.

You rarely get called on any of it. Its obvious that there is bias. There are some guys that you can tell don't have a dog in the fight and then it is obvious that there are guys that have an agenda.


Everything is contrarian in nature. Its obvious I know something about basketball. Thus the movement to make me seem like a fool is futile. I will post when I feel like posting. I will take time off when I feel like chilling.

Its obvious that you cant hold a basketball discussion without quoting statistics. You can't even dissect a players game yet you have "credibility". Baseball is about to start and you are going to do the same thing there too. Plus minus is sort of meaningless when determining overall effectiveness yet you repeatedly quote it like you it holds the keys to the remains of Jimmy Hoffa.

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I ignored nothing. Good players score more than their opponent. Doug McDermott does not. If you put up 60 and gave up 70, you're a -10. You hurt your team.

It is not obvious you know something about basketball. The more you post...the more you should be questioned. You've never said a single thing that a majority would agree with.

Come talk to me as soon as Doug McDermott can score more than he lets in.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Which person came out against this stupid shit?

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You want people to dispute facts?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Kyle Lowry dropped 33 last game and John Wall had a triple double tonight. Most of that damage was done against Etwaun Moore. You think Etwaun MOore is a good basketball player. Taj Gibson is outplayed damn near every night and you think he is good also. This silly ass points are rarely challenged. The guys that you and others cite never point this out either.

To demonstrate the silliness, hypocrisy, and inconsistency of what you post. Which Power Forward is Taj Gibson outscoring? He avg 8 points a game as an NBA starting power forward. He is outplayed at his position just about every night. YOu think he is good. You have repeatedly stated it. James Harden as you stated is not a good basketball player.

No one challenged you on it. I provide a stat without checking it and its "aha".

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And yet the Bulls scored more than the Wizards when E'Twaun Moore was on the court.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I figured I was the only guy that finds Harden to be a midcarder for life, so to speak.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Here is another fact. He is a multiple time allstar and finished 2nd last year in MVP voting. His team also made it to the Western Conf. finals. They also won 57 games last season. Those are also facts. His plus minus is not where you want to be and thus he is bad?

Multiple time all star and yet he is not a good basketball player. Not one person has challenged you on this either. Its too predictable. I will continue to allude to this each and every time it becomes apparent that this is what's going on.

Whenever I make credible points as I said previously its either ignored or personal attacks are levied.

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Terry Taylor like?

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Are you familiar with the phrase "win with a guy and not necessarily because of him" you may want to read up on it.

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I don't know if he is "bad." He isn't a top 10 NBA player. He does manage to outscore his opponents when on the court however. Which is something, again, your boy McDermott cannot do.

I think most teams would take Butler over Harden, for example.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

No they wouldn't. The Bulls would take Harden straight up for Butler right now. No doubt about it.

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Nah; Harden has no post-NBA future. More like Chavo ... he gets over because of his name, not his workrate - which is good, but not all-star level.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Well here specifically I absolutely agree with IMU's assertion that you forward weak arguments that are frequently and thoroughly refuted, as has been pointed out countless times. I won't say every single one of your arguments is ill-informed, but you do struggle with cause and effect from time to time (the Bulls have been 0-10 since Moore has been starting so such and such generalized assertion is a "fact", and so on) and people aren't going to hesitate to call you out on it. I also wouldn't say you're being picked on, it's just that I think your persistence in the face of all sorts of evidence against you makes for a sort of spectacle that draws attention, some of which is understandably mocking in nature, but nothing out of the ordinary for a board like this I think. You also often pat yourself on the back in the middle of all of this, so you can understand why you doubling down on whatever argument might invite further scorn, even if you think you're correct (I think you've made it very clear how often you think you're correct).

As for silence or whatever, I wouldn't say I only voice disagreement when you're on the opposite end of my position. I just happen to agree here with IMU on Harden; I think he can be overrated, 57 wins notwithstanding. I also don't agree with you on the offense vs defense thing, so that's another reason why I'm inclined toward IMU's point of view. Like IMU, I also believe plus/minus has some utility as an analytical tool; sometimes I think you fail to realize how inherently subjective the "eye test" can be, which is your preferred method of assessment, and this is also one reason why I think nuance escapes you from time to time. But that's fine; some guys prefer more syllogistic ways of arguing, while you might prefer different methods...it's all good. We disagree...whatever.

Lastly, like IMU said, guys disagree all the time. There might be a loose consensus here about Thibs (outside of you, of course, and maybe a few others), at least for guys who post frequently in NBA threads, but there's disagreements all over the place elsewhere. For example, I think Rondo is an overrated fraud while FF seems to want to have his babies. I disagreed with IMU on Noah though I think IMU has come to like him more over the years. There's also very little agreement around here regarding GarPax and their legacy (I lean toward a more positive appraisal while others want them gone). So again I don't think there's some coordinated effort to attack you, it's just that I think your peculiar mix of at times specious reasoning and rigid dogmatism (coaches. don't. matter.) invites more attention toward your arguments than you maybe expect.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I want to respond to what you said but I will table it until tomorrow. It's a lot in there. I want to give it a proper response.

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1. I never stated that coaches don't matter. You keep pushing that one and it is a lie.

2. The weak arguments that you speak of. I provided evidence for my position regarding offense/defense. It was, as is typical ignored.
3. I provided evidence for my argument regarding injuries. It too was ignored. Thibs first year in the league he had 8 players that played in 80 or more games.

4. The dogma that you refer relates to Taj Gibson/Josh Smith. You probably think it was a weak argument but I was right about that. Lance Stephenson too. I noticed that there wasn't any comment after the fact but a lot of it when Josh Smith was waived.

5. What I've noticed and its easily perceivable is that you guys never disagree when I am involved. I'm going to be blunt. The main guys that I have disagreed with over the past year never seem to disagree when it involves me. They either lend support to the opposing poster when they agree, ignore, or wage a personal insult against me. Its fairly obvious.

6. Is this contrived? I don't know and to be honest I doubt it. Its not that serious in all honest. I will however state that when other guys advance weak arguments it doesn't exhibit similar response. When other guys are caught flip flopping as you did with the Thibs stuff or Imu with Butler there is little to no comment.

7. Its also obvious that certain guys always choose sides. These sides are the ones that oppose me. Conversely it is obvious that there are guys that truly have an independance of thought. There is an almost knee jerk reaction to dispute me merely for the sake of refuting me.

8. Your disagreements are all outliers and it is obvious when I make valid points that they will be ignored. There is never any support and that is why I pat myself on the back.

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What is it with the Bulls and Raptors? Bulls have now beaten them 9 straight times. Would be interesting to see what happens if the Bulls were to meet them in the 1st round...a distinct possibility.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."