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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:11 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Hillary has a far substantial lead in pledged delegates than President Obama had at any point in 2008 but no one is demanding that Bernie drop out and many believe that he can win.

Maybe he's staying in the race in case somebody assassinates Hillary. Wasn't that Hillary's reason in '08?


She wanted to finish and her belief was it was really important for women for her to stay until the end.

And Bernie has a message he promised to bring to all 50 states and he too feels it's important to do that. What's the problem here?


They're being treated despite her having a greater lead in pledged delegates than President Obama had at any point in 2008.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:15 pm 
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Nas wrote:

They're being treated despite her having a greater lead in pledged delegates than President Obama had at any point in 2008.

Don't worry too much about it. You've said repeatedly that Bernie will lay down his principles whenever the Democratic Party asks him to, so he should be dropping out any day now to help unite the party.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:22 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:

They're being treated despite her having a greater lead in pledged delegates than President Obama had at any point in 2008.

Don't worry too much about it. You've said repeatedly that Bernie will lay down his principles whenever the Democratic Party asks him to, so he should be dropping out any day now to help unite the party.


He's not being asked to drop out because they don't want to upset his voters. You saw he walked back his comments about her being unqualified. I believe that he truly believes that. Same is true about President Obama being a failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:24 pm 
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Nas wrote:
From everything I've heard and read she is great behind doors at understanding problems and finding solutions but she comes off poorly in front of a camera.


FWIW, I got to watch her work here on the south side for an extended period in the late 80's. Her quickness, intelligence and attention to/grasping of details outside of her chosen field was absolutely stunning. She was so thoroughly on top of issues it was almost intimidating, but fascinating as hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:33 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Nas wrote:
From everything I've heard and read she is great behind doors at understanding problems and finding solutions but she comes off poorly in front of a camera.


FWIW, I got to watch her work here on the south side for an extended period in the late 80's. Her quickness, intelligence and attention to/grasping of details outside of her chosen field was absolutely stunning. She was so thoroughly on top of issues it was almost intimidating, but fascinating as hell.


I think those are great qualities for a president to have.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:13 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Nas wrote:
From everything I've heard and read she is great behind doors at understanding problems and finding solutions but she comes off poorly in front of a camera.


FWIW, I got to watch her work here on the south side for an extended period in the late 80's. Her quickness, intelligence and attention to/grasping of details outside of her chosen field was absolutely stunning. She was so thoroughly on top of issues it was almost intimidating, but fascinating as hell.


I honestly don't believe I've ever heard anyone dispute those things. I'm not saying you implied that. It's just a general statement, given our discourse about her here lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:24 pm 
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This whole debate is at its core laughable. Bernie Sanders admits to being a foreign policy neophyte. He has positioned himself as an income inequality warrior. He hasn't been the champion of any major issues during his entire tenure in Congress yet he is going to lead a revolution?. Hillary Clinton's Healthcare fight, and fight on Children's Defense fund supersedes anything Bernie Sanders had ever done. He is a run of them mill protest candidate. Nothing more nothing less.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:38 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Nas wrote:
From everything I've heard and read she is great behind doors at understanding problems and finding solutions but she comes off poorly in front of a camera.


FWIW, I got to watch her work here on the south side for an extended period in the late 80's. Her quickness, intelligence and attention to/grasping of details outside of her chosen field was absolutely stunning. She was so thoroughly on top of issues it was almost intimidating, but fascinating as hell.







Too bad ya never met Bernie, I'd bet you would have been more impressed.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-d ... -and-race/

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:35 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Nas wrote:
From everything I've heard and read she is great behind doors at understanding problems and finding solutions but she comes off poorly in front of a camera.


FWIW, I got to watch her work here on the south side for an extended period in the late 80's. Her quickness, intelligence and attention to/grasping of details outside of her chosen field was absolutely stunning. She was so thoroughly on top of issues it was almost intimidating, but fascinating as hell.


Memories


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:52 pm 
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Hillary Clinton makes a joke about CPT with the mayor of New York and a member of the cast of Hamilton. Have we reached Peak Hillary?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:57 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Hillary Clinton makes a joke about CPT with the mayor of New York and a member of the cast of Hamilton. Have we reached Peak Hillary?


Cautious Politician Time.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:14 pm 
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So what day do we all unite behind Hillary and forget all this "Wall Streets chosen candidate" and "she only cares about her rich friends!"?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So what day do we all unite behind Hillary and forget all this "Wall Streets chosen candidate" and "she only cares about her rich friends!"?


Never!

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:10 pm 
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hillary sucks. why do people want to continue the illuminati machine? fuck this shit

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:37 am 
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Hillary should start the equal pay push with her own foundation.


Richard Pollock
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Male executives at the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton Foundation earn 38 percent more than women executives, according to a Daily Caller News Foundation review of the foundation’s latest IRS tax filings.

The foundation’s 2013 IRS form 990 reveals that nearly three times as many men as women occupy the executive suites at the Little Rock, Arkansas-based foundation.

On average, top male executives at the foundation earn $109,000 more than the top female executives with positions in the C-suite.

The numbers were in stark contrast to former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s campaign-oriented “Equal Pay Day” speech, which she delivered in Silicon Valley Tuesday. She charged that equal pay for women was “long overdue.”


“I feel like [equal pay] is something that’s long overdue,” she told an event organized by Glassdoor, which compares salaries and working conditions at corporations.

“It is way past time to end the outrage of so many women still earning less than men on the job,” she told the audience.
Special: Kathie Lee Was Not Happy When Dr. Oz Shared Her Crazy Secret

Pay equity at The Clinton Foundation, however, doesn’t quite meet those standards.

The foundation’s highest paid executive is Frederick Post, director of “sponsor and marketing,” who has built the foundation’s assets to $247 million. He received $484,000 in annual compensation.

The highest paid woman is CEO Virginia Ehrlich. Her pay is only $201,000, less than half that of Post’s.

The second-highest paid male is long-time Clinton associate Bruce Lindsay, who received $395,000 in annual compensation.

Completing this poll entitles you to Daily Caller news updates free of charge. You may opt out at anytime. You also agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.
All eight male foundation execs earn $200,000 or more. Only one woman earned $200,000, while Stephanie Streett, its executive director, received a paltry $169,000.

Altogether, eight executives are men in the executive suites compared to three women, according to the foundation’s filing.

Clinton did not refer to her own foundation’s pay disparities at the event.

A Clinton Foundation spokesman has not responded to a DCNF request for comment.


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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:52 am 
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Hillary Clinton is either a monumental liar or wholly incompetent. In either case, her interpretation of the Honduras coup seriously undermines the idea that she is competent in the area of foreign policy. From commondreams.org:

Quote:
Democatic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton insisted the Honduras legislature and national judiciary’s removal of President Manuel Zelaya in 2009 “actually followed the law” and was not an illegal coup. Her statement sharply contradicts the real-time assessment of Hugo Llorens, who was the United States’ ambassador to Honduras.

At a meeting with the New York Daily News editorial board on April 8, Clinton was asked about her direct involvement in “the coup in Honduras,” which took place when she was secretary of state.

As you know in 2009, the military overthrew President Zelaya. There was a period there where the OAS was trying to isolate that regime, but apparently some of the emails that have come out as a result of the State Department releases show that some of your top aides were urging you to declare it a military coup, cut off U.S. aid. You didn’t do that. You ended up negotiating with Oscar Arias [former Costa Rican president] a deal for new elections.

But the situation in Honduras has continued to deteriorate. There’s been 300 people killed by government forces, and all these children fleeing and mothers from Honduras over the border into United States. And just a few weeks ago, one of the leading environmental activist, Berta Cáceres, was assassinated in her home. Do you have any concerns about the role that you played in that particular situation, even not necessarily being in agreement with your top aides in the State Department?

The question was solidly framed, and it directly asked Clinton to take responsibility for her role in the coup, something most in establishment news media have been reluctant to do.

Clinton responded, “The legislature, the national legislature in Honduras and the national judiciary actually followed the law in removing President Zelaya. Now I didn’t like the way it looked or the way they did it but they had a very strong argument that they had followed the constitution and the legal precedence.”

“And as you know, they really undercut their argument by spiriting him out of the country in his pajamas, where they sent the military to take him out of his bed and get him out of the country. So this began as a very mixed and difficult situation,” Clinton added.

But this wasn’t merely a situation in which a change in leadership appeared unlawful because the president was whisked away in his pajamas. Governments all over the world regarded what unfolded as an illegal act, and they demanded Zelaya be returned to power. Although Clinton’s State Department took a different tack, President Barack Obama initially declared, “We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras, the democratically elected president there.”

Nearly one month after the military removed Zelaya from power, on July 24, Ambassador Llorens wrote in a U.S. State Embassy cable, “The Embassy perspective is that there is no doubt that the
military, Supreme Court, and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch, while accepting that there may be a prima facie case that Zelaya may have committed illegalities and may have even violated the constitution.”

The U.S. embassy in Honduras rejected all of the coup defenders’ rationalizations for a “patently illegal act” and outlined the following: “the military had no authority to remove Zelaya from the
country”; “Congress has no constitutional authority to remove a Honduran president”; “Congress and the judiciary removed Zelaya on the basis of a hasty, ad-hoc, extralegal, secret, 48-hour process”; and “Zelaya’s arrest and forced removal from the country violated multiple constitutional guarantees, including the prohibition on expatriation, presumption of innocence and right to due process.”

How can anyone claiming to have sound judgment read such a clear-cut assessment and still assert there was a “strong argument” the constitution and rule of law was followed in Honduras?

Clinton suggested a brokered resolution was necessary after the coup because of the threat of bloodshed from Zelaya and his friends and allies, who were “not just in Honduras but in some of the neighboring countries like Nicaragua.” She said, “We could have had a terrible civil war that would have been just terrifying in its loss of life.”

What does Clinton think is happening now in Honduras? Does she really believe the horrific violence unfolding is not a result of the coup in 2009?

The Huffington Post reported, “A sharp escalation of violence accompanied the 2009 coup and the expansion of cartel operations. The Honduran homicide rate spiked from an already high 61 per 100,000 in 2008 to 90 per 100,000 in 2012 — the world’s highest murder rate, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime.”

Honduras’ transformation into one of the most violent nations in the world has fueled a refugee crisis. However, instead of confronting the role her actions as secretary of state played, Clinton has called for refugee children to be “sent back” to Honduras to “send a message to families in Central America: Do not let your children take this very dangerous journey.” In other words, do not permit children to escape the bloodshed, which has reached epidemic levels.

Clinton argued during the editorial board meeting the U.S. government did not want to declare the government a coup because “humanitarian aid,” such as aid from the U.S. Agency for International Development, would have to be halted. The government was concerned about the impact to “very poor people,” and they did not want to “punish” the Honduran people by calling what had happened a coup.

This excuse ignores the fact that by November there was an aid freeze as a result of the coup. Reuters reported doctors and aid workers were dealing with hungry and sick children, who could not obtain medicine because donors cut aid.

“Soup kitchens have closed, medicines have become scarce, foreign doctors have canceled trips to Honduras, and funding for the poor to run small businesses have dried up, increasing unemployment,” according to Reuters. The European Union “suspended about $97 million in aid and the World Bank in July halted $270 million in loans.” The Inter-American Development Bank “held back $50 million.” About $450 million in credits and assistance” were frozen, Zelaya’s finance minister said.

Clinton apparently never contemplated these potential consequences when the State Department and the wider Obama administration made the decision to back the illegal military coup and not push for Zelaya to be restored to power.

The former secretary of state also mentioned the election in 2009, which was held after the coup, but she expressed no concerns about how the election was carried out and the fact that a coup backer won. Back in November 2009, she declared, “The Honduran people expressed their commitment to a democratic future for their country.”

However, as Rosemary Joyce of NACLA pointed out, “The election was conducted without the presence of certified international observers that would be necessary to accept the results even in normal times, let alone with the election conducted under a government exercising fierce repression of the media and of free speech.” It was a “demonstration election,” an election “held for little other purpose than to buff the image of an anti-democratic government.”

Clinton recognizes this part of her record is scandalous. The Intercept’s Lee Fang reported Clinton had back-channel conversations with longtime Clinton confidant and lobbyist Lanny Davis, who was working as a consultant for a group of Honduran businessmen who supported the coup. She also deleted the section on Honduras from the paperback version of her book, “Hard Choices.”

Prior to her murder, leading environmental activist Berta Cáceres recognized Clinton played a prime role in the destruction of her country.

“Clinton recognized that they didn’t permit Mel Zelaya’s return to the presidency,” Cáceres said. “There were going to be elections. And the international community—officials, the government, the grand majority—accepted this, even though we warned this was going to be very dangerous and that it would permit a barbarity, not only in Honduras but in the rest of the continent. And we’ve been witnesses to this.”

Over 100 environmental activists and “scores of journalists, human rights defenders, union leaders, LGBT rights activists, legal professionals, and political activists” have been murdered.

The intersectionality of this issue could not be more glaring. The legacy of the coup impacts all sections of the Honduran population. Yet, that population does not include U.S. citizens, so she openly excuses the role she played in supporting conditions which have produced horrific violenc

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:56 am 
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stroke lenses?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:02 am 
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Hussra wrote:


I believe they said concussion lenses.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:03 am 
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Hillary has all of her haters on the run.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:56 am 
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Great speech at the National Action Network.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:06 pm 
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Odd I never even heard of this term until a couple weeks ago when I was reading a Thomas Wolfe book.

wrong thread again.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Look out Nas has his blinders and goggles on again

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:39 pm 
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chaspoppcap wrote:
Look out Nas has his blinders and goggles on again

Why do I need both? Why can't you recognize excellence?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Nas wrote:
chaspoppcap wrote:
Look out Nas has his blinders and goggles on again

Why do I need both?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:50 pm 
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Hillary Clinton, “the top salesperson for the ruling oligarchy.” http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/13/ ... y-clinton/

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:01 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Hillary Clinton is either a monumental liar or wholly incompetent. In either case, her interpretation of the Honduras coup seriously undermines the idea that she is competent in the area of foreign policy. From commondreams.org:

Quote:
Democatic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton insisted the Honduras legislature and national judiciary’s removal of President Manuel Zelaya in 2009 “actually followed the law” and was not an illegal coup. Her statement sharply contradicts the real-time assessment of Hugo Llorens, who was the United States’ ambassador to Honduras.

At a meeting with the New York Daily News editorial board on April 8, Clinton was asked about her direct involvement in “the coup in Honduras,” which took place when she was secretary of state.

As you know in 2009, the military overthrew President Zelaya. There was a period there where the OAS was trying to isolate that regime, but apparently some of the emails that have come out as a result of the State Department releases show that some of your top aides were urging you to declare it a military coup, cut off U.S. aid. You didn’t do that. You ended up negotiating with Oscar Arias [former Costa Rican president] a deal for new elections.

But the situation in Honduras has continued to deteriorate. There’s been 300 people killed by government forces, and all these children fleeing and mothers from Honduras over the border into United States. And just a few weeks ago, one of the leading environmental activist, Berta Cáceres, was assassinated in her home. Do you have any concerns about the role that you played in that particular situation, even not necessarily being in agreement with your top aides in the State Department?

The question was solidly framed, and it directly asked Clinton to take responsibility for her role in the coup, something most in establishment news media have been reluctant to do.

Clinton responded, “The legislature, the national legislature in Honduras and the national judiciary actually followed the law in removing President Zelaya. Now I didn’t like the way it looked or the way they did it but they had a very strong argument that they had followed the constitution and the legal precedence.”

“And as you know, they really undercut their argument by spiriting him out of the country in his pajamas, where they sent the military to take him out of his bed and get him out of the country. So this began as a very mixed and difficult situation,” Clinton added.

But this wasn’t merely a situation in which a change in leadership appeared unlawful because the president was whisked away in his pajamas. Governments all over the world regarded what unfolded as an illegal act, and they demanded Zelaya be returned to power. Although Clinton’s State Department took a different tack, President Barack Obama initially declared, “We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras, the democratically elected president there.”

Nearly one month after the military removed Zelaya from power, on July 24, Ambassador Llorens wrote in a U.S. State Embassy cable, “The Embassy perspective is that there is no doubt that the
military, Supreme Court, and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch, while accepting that there may be a prima facie case that Zelaya may have committed illegalities and may have even violated the constitution.”

The U.S. embassy in Honduras rejected all of the coup defenders’ rationalizations for a “patently illegal act” and outlined the following: “the military had no authority to remove Zelaya from the
country”; “Congress has no constitutional authority to remove a Honduran president”; “Congress and the judiciary removed Zelaya on the basis of a hasty, ad-hoc, extralegal, secret, 48-hour process”; and “Zelaya’s arrest and forced removal from the country violated multiple constitutional guarantees, including the prohibition on expatriation, presumption of innocence and right to due process.”

How can anyone claiming to have sound judgment read such a clear-cut assessment and still assert there was a “strong argument” the constitution and rule of law was followed in Honduras?

Clinton suggested a brokered resolution was necessary after the coup because of the threat of bloodshed from Zelaya and his friends and allies, who were “not just in Honduras but in some of the neighboring countries like Nicaragua.” She said, “We could have had a terrible civil war that would have been just terrifying in its loss of life.”

What does Clinton think is happening now in Honduras? Does she really believe the horrific violence unfolding is not a result of the coup in 2009?

The Huffington Post reported, “A sharp escalation of violence accompanied the 2009 coup and the expansion of cartel operations. The Honduran homicide rate spiked from an already high 61 per 100,000 in 2008 to 90 per 100,000 in 2012 — the world’s highest murder rate, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime.”

Honduras’ transformation into one of the most violent nations in the world has fueled a refugee crisis. However, instead of confronting the role her actions as secretary of state played, Clinton has called for refugee children to be “sent back” to Honduras to “send a message to families in Central America: Do not let your children take this very dangerous journey.” In other words, do not permit children to escape the bloodshed, which has reached epidemic levels.

Clinton argued during the editorial board meeting the U.S. government did not want to declare the government a coup because “humanitarian aid,” such as aid from the U.S. Agency for International Development, would have to be halted. The government was concerned about the impact to “very poor people,” and they did not want to “punish” the Honduran people by calling what had happened a coup.

This excuse ignores the fact that by November there was an aid freeze as a result of the coup. Reuters reported doctors and aid workers were dealing with hungry and sick children, who could not obtain medicine because donors cut aid.

“Soup kitchens have closed, medicines have become scarce, foreign doctors have canceled trips to Honduras, and funding for the poor to run small businesses have dried up, increasing unemployment,” according to Reuters. The European Union “suspended about $97 million in aid and the World Bank in July halted $270 million in loans.” The Inter-American Development Bank “held back $50 million.” About $450 million in credits and assistance” were frozen, Zelaya’s finance minister said.

Clinton apparently never contemplated these potential consequences when the State Department and the wider Obama administration made the decision to back the illegal military coup and not push for Zelaya to be restored to power.

The former secretary of state also mentioned the election in 2009, which was held after the coup, but she expressed no concerns about how the election was carried out and the fact that a coup backer won. Back in November 2009, she declared, “The Honduran people expressed their commitment to a democratic future for their country.”

However, as Rosemary Joyce of NACLA pointed out, “The election was conducted without the presence of certified international observers that would be necessary to accept the results even in normal times, let alone with the election conducted under a government exercising fierce repression of the media and of free speech.” It was a “demonstration election,” an election “held for little other purpose than to buff the image of an anti-democratic government.”

Clinton recognizes this part of her record is scandalous. The Intercept’s Lee Fang reported Clinton had back-channel conversations with longtime Clinton confidant and lobbyist Lanny Davis, who was working as a consultant for a group of Honduran businessmen who supported the coup. She also deleted the section on Honduras from the paperback version of her book, “Hard Choices.”

Prior to her murder, leading environmental activist Berta Cáceres recognized Clinton played a prime role in the destruction of her country.

“Clinton recognized that they didn’t permit Mel Zelaya’s return to the presidency,” Cáceres said. “There were going to be elections. And the international community—officials, the government, the grand majority—accepted this, even though we warned this was going to be very dangerous and that it would permit a barbarity, not only in Honduras but in the rest of the continent. And we’ve been witnesses to this.”

Over 100 environmental activists and “scores of journalists, human rights defenders, union leaders, LGBT rights activists, legal professionals, and political activists” have been murdered.

The intersectionality of this issue could not be more glaring. The legacy of the coup impacts all sections of the Honduran population. Yet, that population does not include U.S. citizens, so she openly excuses the role she played in supporting conditions which have produced horrific violenc




What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


This situation appears to be "fluid".

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:08 pm 
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long time guy wrote:

What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


Sanders' position on Latin America isn't perfect, but it's much better than Hillary Clinton's record of fomenting instability across the globe:

Quote:
When asked about his past support for Latin American leaders Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua and Fidel Castro in Cuba, and to explain "the difference between the socialism that you profess and the socialism in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela," Sanders declared:

What that was about was saying that the United States was wrong to try to invade Cuba, that the United States was wrong trying to support people to overthrow the Nicaraguan government, that the United States was wrong trying to overthrow in 1954, the government -- democratically elected government of Guatemala.

Throughout the history of our relationship with Latin America we've operated under the so-called Monroe Doctrine, and that said the United States had the right do anything that they wanted to do in Latin America. So I actually went to Nicaragua and I very shortly opposed the Reagan administration's efforts to overthrow that government. And I strongly opposed earlier Henry Kissinger and the -- to overthrow the government of Salvador Allende in Chile.

I think the United States should be working with governments around the world, not get involved in regime change. And all of these actions, by the way, in Latin America, brought forth a lot of very strong anti-American sentiments.

[...] The key issue here was whether the United States should go around overthrowing small Latin American countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:10 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:

What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


Sanders' position on Latin America isn't perfect, but it's much better than Hillary Clinton's record of fomenting instability across the globe:

Quote:
When asked about his past support for Latin American leaders Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua and Fidel Castro in Cuba, and to explain "the difference between the socialism that you profess and the socialism in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela," Sanders declared:

What that was about was saying that the United States was wrong to try to invade Cuba, that the United States was wrong trying to support people to overthrow the Nicaraguan government, that the United States was wrong trying to overthrow in 1954, the government -- democratically elected government of Guatemala.

Throughout the history of our relationship with Latin America we've operated under the so-called Monroe Doctrine, and that said the United States had the right do anything that they wanted to do in Latin America. So I actually went to Nicaragua and I very shortly opposed the Reagan administration's efforts to overthrow that government. And I strongly opposed earlier Henry Kissinger and the -- to overthrow the government of Salvador Allende in Chile.

I think the United States should be working with governments around the world, not get involved in regime change. And all of these actions, by the way, in Latin America, brought forth a lot of very strong anti-American sentiments.

[...] The key issue here was whether the United States should go around overthrowing small Latin American countries.



Secretary of State doesn't set foreign policy unless that Secretary of State is Henry Kissinger or apparently Hillary Clinton.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:11 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Hillary Clinton is either a monumental liar or wholly incompetent. In either case, her interpretation of the Honduras coup seriously undermines the idea that she is competent in the area of foreign policy. From commondreams.org:

Quote:
Democatic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton insisted the Honduras legislature and national judiciary’s removal of President Manuel Zelaya in 2009 “actually followed the law” and was not an illegal coup. Her statement sharply contradicts the real-time assessment of Hugo Llorens, who was the United States’ ambassador to Honduras.

At a meeting with the New York Daily News editorial board on April 8, Clinton was asked about her direct involvement in “the coup in Honduras,” which took place when she was secretary of state.

As you know in 2009, the military overthrew President Zelaya. There was a period there where the OAS was trying to isolate that regime, but apparently some of the emails that have come out as a result of the State Department releases show that some of your top aides were urging you to declare it a military coup, cut off U.S. aid. You didn’t do that. You ended up negotiating with Oscar Arias [former Costa Rican president] a deal for new elections.

But the situation in Honduras has continued to deteriorate. There’s been 300 people killed by government forces, and all these children fleeing and mothers from Honduras over the border into United States. And just a few weeks ago, one of the leading environmental activist, Berta Cáceres, was assassinated in her home. Do you have any concerns about the role that you played in that particular situation, even not necessarily being in agreement with your top aides in the State Department?

The question was solidly framed, and it directly asked Clinton to take responsibility for her role in the coup, something most in establishment news media have been reluctant to do.

Clinton responded, “The legislature, the national legislature in Honduras and the national judiciary actually followed the law in removing President Zelaya. Now I didn’t like the way it looked or the way they did it but they had a very strong argument that they had followed the constitution and the legal precedence.”

“And as you know, they really undercut their argument by spiriting him out of the country in his pajamas, where they sent the military to take him out of his bed and get him out of the country. So this began as a very mixed and difficult situation,” Clinton added.

But this wasn’t merely a situation in which a change in leadership appeared unlawful because the president was whisked away in his pajamas. Governments all over the world regarded what unfolded as an illegal act, and they demanded Zelaya be returned to power. Although Clinton’s State Department took a different tack, President Barack Obama initially declared, “We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras, the democratically elected president there.”

Nearly one month after the military removed Zelaya from power, on July 24, Ambassador Llorens wrote in a U.S. State Embassy cable, “The Embassy perspective is that there is no doubt that the
military, Supreme Court, and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch, while accepting that there may be a prima facie case that Zelaya may have committed illegalities and may have even violated the constitution.”

The U.S. embassy in Honduras rejected all of the coup defenders’ rationalizations for a “patently illegal act” and outlined the following: “the military had no authority to remove Zelaya from the
country”; “Congress has no constitutional authority to remove a Honduran president”; “Congress and the judiciary removed Zelaya on the basis of a hasty, ad-hoc, extralegal, secret, 48-hour process”; and “Zelaya’s arrest and forced removal from the country violated multiple constitutional guarantees, including the prohibition on expatriation, presumption of innocence and right to due process.”

How can anyone claiming to have sound judgment read such a clear-cut assessment and still assert there was a “strong argument” the constitution and rule of law was followed in Honduras?

Clinton suggested a brokered resolution was necessary after the coup because of the threat of bloodshed from Zelaya and his friends and allies, who were “not just in Honduras but in some of the neighboring countries like Nicaragua.” She said, “We could have had a terrible civil war that would have been just terrifying in its loss of life.”

What does Clinton think is happening now in Honduras? Does she really believe the horrific violence unfolding is not a result of the coup in 2009?

The Huffington Post reported, “A sharp escalation of violence accompanied the 2009 coup and the expansion of cartel operations. The Honduran homicide rate spiked from an already high 61 per 100,000 in 2008 to 90 per 100,000 in 2012 — the world’s highest murder rate, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime.”

Honduras’ transformation into one of the most violent nations in the world has fueled a refugee crisis. However, instead of confronting the role her actions as secretary of state played, Clinton has called for refugee children to be “sent back” to Honduras to “send a message to families in Central America: Do not let your children take this very dangerous journey.” In other words, do not permit children to escape the bloodshed, which has reached epidemic levels.

Clinton argued during the editorial board meeting the U.S. government did not want to declare the government a coup because “humanitarian aid,” such as aid from the U.S. Agency for International Development, would have to be halted. The government was concerned about the impact to “very poor people,” and they did not want to “punish” the Honduran people by calling what had happened a coup.

This excuse ignores the fact that by November there was an aid freeze as a result of the coup. Reuters reported doctors and aid workers were dealing with hungry and sick children, who could not obtain medicine because donors cut aid.

“Soup kitchens have closed, medicines have become scarce, foreign doctors have canceled trips to Honduras, and funding for the poor to run small businesses have dried up, increasing unemployment,” according to Reuters. The European Union “suspended about $97 million in aid and the World Bank in July halted $270 million in loans.” The Inter-American Development Bank “held back $50 million.” About $450 million in credits and assistance” were frozen, Zelaya’s finance minister said.

Clinton apparently never contemplated these potential consequences when the State Department and the wider Obama administration made the decision to back the illegal military coup and not push for Zelaya to be restored to power.

The former secretary of state also mentioned the election in 2009, which was held after the coup, but she expressed no concerns about how the election was carried out and the fact that a coup backer won. Back in November 2009, she declared, “The Honduran people expressed their commitment to a democratic future for their country.”

However, as Rosemary Joyce of NACLA pointed out, “The election was conducted without the presence of certified international observers that would be necessary to accept the results even in normal times, let alone with the election conducted under a government exercising fierce repression of the media and of free speech.” It was a “demonstration election,” an election “held for little other purpose than to buff the image of an anti-democratic government.”

Clinton recognizes this part of her record is scandalous. The Intercept’s Lee Fang reported Clinton had back-channel conversations with longtime Clinton confidant and lobbyist Lanny Davis, who was working as a consultant for a group of Honduran businessmen who supported the coup. She also deleted the section on Honduras from the paperback version of her book, “Hard Choices.”

Prior to her murder, leading environmental activist Berta Cáceres recognized Clinton played a prime role in the destruction of her country.

“Clinton recognized that they didn’t permit Mel Zelaya’s return to the presidency,” Cáceres said. “There were going to be elections. And the international community—officials, the government, the grand majority—accepted this, even though we warned this was going to be very dangerous and that it would permit a barbarity, not only in Honduras but in the rest of the continent. And we’ve been witnesses to this.”

Over 100 environmental activists and “scores of journalists, human rights defenders, union leaders, LGBT rights activists, legal professionals, and political activists” have been murdered.

The intersectionality of this issue could not be more glaring. The legacy of the coup impacts all sections of the Honduran population. Yet, that population does not include U.S. citizens, so she openly excuses the role she played in supporting conditions which have produced horrific violenc




What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


This situation appears to be "fluid".


Did you support Obama?

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am
Posts: 31948
leashyourkids wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Hillary Clinton is either a monumental liar or wholly incompetent. In either case, her interpretation of the Honduras coup seriously undermines the idea that she is competent in the area of foreign policy. From commondreams.org:

Quote:
Democatic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton insisted the Honduras legislature and national judiciary’s removal of President Manuel Zelaya in 2009 “actually followed the law” and was not an illegal coup. Her statement sharply contradicts the real-time assessment of Hugo Llorens, who was the United States’ ambassador to Honduras.

At a meeting with the New York Daily News editorial board on April 8, Clinton was asked about her direct involvement in “the coup in Honduras,” which took place when she was secretary of state.

As you know in 2009, the military overthrew President Zelaya. There was a period there where the OAS was trying to isolate that regime, but apparently some of the emails that have come out as a result of the State Department releases show that some of your top aides were urging you to declare it a military coup, cut off U.S. aid. You didn’t do that. You ended up negotiating with Oscar Arias [former Costa Rican president] a deal for new elections.

But the situation in Honduras has continued to deteriorate. There’s been 300 people killed by government forces, and all these children fleeing and mothers from Honduras over the border into United States. And just a few weeks ago, one of the leading environmental activist, Berta Cáceres, was assassinated in her home. Do you have any concerns about the role that you played in that particular situation, even not necessarily being in agreement with your top aides in the State Department?

The question was solidly framed, and it directly asked Clinton to take responsibility for her role in the coup, something most in establishment news media have been reluctant to do.

Clinton responded, “The legislature, the national legislature in Honduras and the national judiciary actually followed the law in removing President Zelaya. Now I didn’t like the way it looked or the way they did it but they had a very strong argument that they had followed the constitution and the legal precedence.”

“And as you know, they really undercut their argument by spiriting him out of the country in his pajamas, where they sent the military to take him out of his bed and get him out of the country. So this began as a very mixed and difficult situation,” Clinton added.

But this wasn’t merely a situation in which a change in leadership appeared unlawful because the president was whisked away in his pajamas. Governments all over the world regarded what unfolded as an illegal act, and they demanded Zelaya be returned to power. Although Clinton’s State Department took a different tack, President Barack Obama initially declared, “We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras, the democratically elected president there.”

Nearly one month after the military removed Zelaya from power, on July 24, Ambassador Llorens wrote in a U.S. State Embassy cable, “The Embassy perspective is that there is no doubt that the
military, Supreme Court, and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch, while accepting that there may be a prima facie case that Zelaya may have committed illegalities and may have even violated the constitution.”

The U.S. embassy in Honduras rejected all of the coup defenders’ rationalizations for a “patently illegal act” and outlined the following: “the military had no authority to remove Zelaya from the
country”; “Congress has no constitutional authority to remove a Honduran president”; “Congress and the judiciary removed Zelaya on the basis of a hasty, ad-hoc, extralegal, secret, 48-hour process”; and “Zelaya’s arrest and forced removal from the country violated multiple constitutional guarantees, including the prohibition on expatriation, presumption of innocence and right to due process.”

How can anyone claiming to have sound judgment read such a clear-cut assessment and still assert there was a “strong argument” the constitution and rule of law was followed in Honduras?

Clinton suggested a brokered resolution was necessary after the coup because of the threat of bloodshed from Zelaya and his friends and allies, who were “not just in Honduras but in some of the neighboring countries like Nicaragua.” She said, “We could have had a terrible civil war that would have been just terrifying in its loss of life.”

What does Clinton think is happening now in Honduras? Does she really believe the horrific violence unfolding is not a result of the coup in 2009?

The Huffington Post reported, “A sharp escalation of violence accompanied the 2009 coup and the expansion of cartel operations. The Honduran homicide rate spiked from an already high 61 per 100,000 in 2008 to 90 per 100,000 in 2012 — the world’s highest murder rate, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime.”

Honduras’ transformation into one of the most violent nations in the world has fueled a refugee crisis. However, instead of confronting the role her actions as secretary of state played, Clinton has called for refugee children to be “sent back” to Honduras to “send a message to families in Central America: Do not let your children take this very dangerous journey.” In other words, do not permit children to escape the bloodshed, which has reached epidemic levels.

Clinton argued during the editorial board meeting the U.S. government did not want to declare the government a coup because “humanitarian aid,” such as aid from the U.S. Agency for International Development, would have to be halted. The government was concerned about the impact to “very poor people,” and they did not want to “punish” the Honduran people by calling what had happened a coup.

This excuse ignores the fact that by November there was an aid freeze as a result of the coup. Reuters reported doctors and aid workers were dealing with hungry and sick children, who could not obtain medicine because donors cut aid.

“Soup kitchens have closed, medicines have become scarce, foreign doctors have canceled trips to Honduras, and funding for the poor to run small businesses have dried up, increasing unemployment,” according to Reuters. The European Union “suspended about $97 million in aid and the World Bank in July halted $270 million in loans.” The Inter-American Development Bank “held back $50 million.” About $450 million in credits and assistance” were frozen, Zelaya’s finance minister said.

Clinton apparently never contemplated these potential consequences when the State Department and the wider Obama administration made the decision to back the illegal military coup and not push for Zelaya to be restored to power.

The former secretary of state also mentioned the election in 2009, which was held after the coup, but she expressed no concerns about how the election was carried out and the fact that a coup backer won. Back in November 2009, she declared, “The Honduran people expressed their commitment to a democratic future for their country.”

However, as Rosemary Joyce of NACLA pointed out, “The election was conducted without the presence of certified international observers that would be necessary to accept the results even in normal times, let alone with the election conducted under a government exercising fierce repression of the media and of free speech.” It was a “demonstration election,” an election “held for little other purpose than to buff the image of an anti-democratic government.”

Clinton recognizes this part of her record is scandalous. The Intercept’s Lee Fang reported Clinton had back-channel conversations with longtime Clinton confidant and lobbyist Lanny Davis, who was working as a consultant for a group of Honduran businessmen who supported the coup. She also deleted the section on Honduras from the paperback version of her book, “Hard Choices.”

Prior to her murder, leading environmental activist Berta Cáceres recognized Clinton played a prime role in the destruction of her country.

“Clinton recognized that they didn’t permit Mel Zelaya’s return to the presidency,” Cáceres said. “There were going to be elections. And the international community—officials, the government, the grand majority—accepted this, even though we warned this was going to be very dangerous and that it would permit a barbarity, not only in Honduras but in the rest of the continent. And we’ve been witnesses to this.”

Over 100 environmental activists and “scores of journalists, human rights defenders, union leaders, LGBT rights activists, legal professionals, and political activists” have been murdered.

The intersectionality of this issue could not be more glaring. The legacy of the coup impacts all sections of the Honduran population. Yet, that population does not include U.S. citizens, so she openly excuses the role she played in supporting conditions which have produced horrific violenc




What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


This situation appears to be "fluid".


Did you support Obama?



I supported Hillary in the 08 primaries and Obama in the General both elections. I lost two bets betting against the guy.

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This is going to reach a head pretty soon.


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