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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:31 pm 
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And Uncle Jerry just lets this shit happen...

http://deadspin.com/it-sounds-like-the- ... socialflow

Whenever the air comes out of any high-pressure situation in the NBA, it tends to precipitate a fallout where all manner of unfavorable gossip finds its way to the surface.

For example: After the Cavaliers fired David Blatt in January, Chris Haynes reported that he didn’t know how to draw up plays late in games or when to call timeouts. Blatt’s friend Adrian Wojnarowski then reported that LeBron James had cooked up a conspiracy to oust his coach and eventually replace him with Mark Jackson.

The Chicago Bulls were officially eliminated from the NBA Playoffs last night when the Pacers beat the Nets, so, today, it’s gossip time. Our first entry comes from the Chicago Sun-Times, where Joe Cowley reports that management poisoned the well before last season in order to make it easier to get Tom Thibodeau out the paint:

If there was an instruction manual on how a front office can mess up a situation, John Paxson and Gar Forman just spent the last two seasons writing the outline.

It was in training camp 2014 that the front office told several core players like Rose and Joakim Noah that it was OK to tune Thibodeau out. That was verified by several sources, including current players.

Gar/Pax sold the players on the idea that Thibodeau’s perceived heavy workload was leading to injury problems.

The Chicago Tribune has more, including the tidbit that the Bulls’ brazen cost-cutting maneuver of dumping Kirk Hinrich to save on luxury tax payments was seen as a betrayal:

And the unceremonious dumping of veteran stalwart Kirk Hinrich to save $2.5 million on the imminent luxury-tax payment was pitched by Forman, beyond the cost-saving aspect, as giving the Bulls a free look at Justin Holiday, a trade exception and an unprotected second-round pick.

That those assets could become trade chips and Holiday has played well hasn’t assuaged some players’ puzzlement over Hinrich’s departure. Beyond his limited-minutes defensive aptitude, Hinrich possessed a powerful, behind-the-scenes presence of accountability and quietly helped teammates in a well-received manner.

According to the Tribune, Hinrich was crucial in holding together coach Fred Hoiberg’s relationship with his team. That relationship was on the rocks as soon as he asked Joakim Noah to come off the bench, and it only soured over the season, finally reaching its peak when Jimmy Butler publicly called him out and asked him to “coach harder.”

Butler’s public declaration in December for Hoiberg to “coach harder” underscored a season-long theme — that Hoiberg struggled to hold players accountable. Hoiberg’s individual relationships with players is stronger than the perception; he communicates with them regularly and is liked.

The Tribune reports that Butler’s leadership wasn’t always well-received:

But Butler’s emboldened state after landing a max contract led to several disruptive moments throughout the season, in film sessions and on the practice floor, sources said. That they continued sometimes unchecked throughout the season didn’t bode well for team chemistry, which started to fray in Thibodeau’s last season.

[...]

As for Butler, teammates alternated between rolling their eyes at his self-proclaimed leadership attempts and respecting his work ethic. His heavy workload and two-way, All-Star talent reminded all that his heart remained in a good place. But his failure to embrace Hoiberg’s system and preference for slower pace and isolation plays didn’t represent inclusive leadership.

Both reports conclude that the Bulls will probably make big personnel changes and give Hoiberg a shot with a roster that’s not so full of Thibodeau guys, which is a good idea. Chicago had the talent of a playoff team, but their season will be over after Wednesday.

Jimmy Butler has shown himself to be a legitimate two-way star, but a bottom-six offensive team who can’t figure out how to juggle four starting caliber-big men is a misshapen mess, not a contender. They’ll try to get younger and faster, in order to mold the roster to Hoiberg’s desired style of play. Chicago has the assets and talent to push for the playoffs again next year. Whether the Bulls can become a contender again despite a combative front office and a luxury-tax-obsessed ownership group is another matter entirely.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:46 am 
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Everytime you see 'teammates not cool with Butler's leadership' you can replace teammates with Rose and it becomes more accurate. Interactions with between teammates and Butler showed as much. Everyone was good with him. Pau picked him up and paraded him after he got back from injury...when he had that good game. He always is congratulating teammates at ends of games. Rose is never a part of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:15 am 
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IMU wrote:
Everytime you see 'teammates not cool with Butler's leadership' you can replace teammates with Rose and it becomes more accurate. Interactions with between teammates and Butler showed as much. Everyone was good with him. Pau picked him up and paraded him after he got back from injury...when he had that good game. He always is congratulating teammates at ends of games. Rose is never a part of that.



At this stage of the game, the Rose vs Butler debate and intra team dynamics are useless babble. Once you fail to make the playoffs it's not anyone's team. Hoiberg has wronged but the fact of the matter is these same players were accused of quitting on Thibs too.

They have to look within themselves for answers. If they are going to continue to point fingers then nothing will get accomplished. Hoiberg may not be good, but neither are some of guys that are doing all of the damn criticizing.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:53 am 
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That is a fair statement.

I'm just this close to abandoning this team permanently. To the extent where the small things they say or do in the next few months could be the last straw.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:20 am 
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IMU wrote:
That is a fair statement.

I'm just this close to abandoning this team permanently. To the extent where the small things they say or do in the next few months could be the last straw.



They can have 20 kumbaya moments and it still wouldn't mean anything if they don't win games. I have had enough of Gasol too. He points the finger too much but is part of the problem also.

This is the year that Paxson earns his GM money. They have to retool the team. I don't think a complete rebuild is necessary just yet, but he has to decide which players remain and which have to be let go. SOme i.e. Snell and Brooks, are obvious and fairly easy.

Others i.e. Gasol, Mirotic, Noah, and going forward Rose aren't.

You can't resign Rose. He could have a comeback year next year and If some other team wants to pay big money let him walk. He probably is 35 in athlete years due to all the injuries. He has demonstrated an unwillingness to play hurt and the injuries prevent him from playing at a consistently high level for long stretches.


Mirotic will also be crucial. Is he closer to Nowitski or Matt Bullard. That is the question and it comes down to Paxson's ability to evaluate talent. That is really in question at this point.


Gasol is another good question. How much does he want? Also how many years does he want? Wouldn't sign him to anything more than a 2 year deal. Wouldn't pay him more than 8 per either. He may back up the truck knowing that it is the last contract he will ever sign.


Noah. What is his value with respect to the team. He needs to be more of a player and less of spiritual leader. M.L. Carr wasn't the reason the Celtics won Championships. Jack Haley also wasn't the reason the Bulls won championships either.

If he can return to the disruptive defender, rebounder, and offensive facilitator then you resign him, but if you think that his value lay solely as an emotional leader then you have to let him go to.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:32 am 
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That's fair.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:45 am 
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I'd keep:

Butler
Moore
Mirotic
McDermott
Felicio
Noah
Holiday

I'd look to move (knowing it would be hard / impossible):

Rose
Gibson
Snell

I'd let walk:

Pau
Brooks

I'm not sure what moves could be made this off-season...I'd love to get Horford and another solid piece...but I'd rather the Bulls focus on a long term fixing of the organization...and not try to remain a team that competes for the 7th and 8th seeds.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:51 am 
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They'll lowball Noah, let Gasol walk, make a max offer to Barnes, and call it a day. He's got that Ames, Iowa basketball pedigree, so there's no need to be concerned at all that he's a huge beneficiary of Golden State's system.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:03 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
They'll lowball Noah, let Gasol walk, make a max offer to Barnes, and call it a day. He's got that Ames, Iowa basketball pedigree, so there's no need to be concerned at all that he's a huge beneficiary of Golden State's system.

Oh forgot that they'll probably sign Hinrich again too. They "missed his leadership" down the stretch.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:11 am 
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just keep Moore if it's the last thing you do, for gods sake


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:00 pm 
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nobody on this team is untouchable. its like an abused dog.. you bring them back next year, youre showing them its ok to be shitty. fuck them all.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:27 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
IMU wrote:
That is a fair statement.

I'm just this close to abandoning this team permanently. To the extent where the small things they say or do in the next few months could be the last straw.



They can have 20 kumbaya moments and it still wouldn't mean anything if they don't win games. I have had enough of Gasol too. He points the finger too much but is part of the problem also.

This is the year that Paxson earns his GM money. They have to retool the team. I don't think a complete rebuild is necessary just yet, but he has to decide which players remain and which have to be let go. SOme i.e. Snell and Brooks, are obvious and fairly easy.

Others i.e. Gasol, Mirotic, Noah, and going forward Rose aren't.

You can't resign Rose. He could have a comeback year next year and If some other team wants to pay big money let him walk. He probably is 35 in athlete years due to all the injuries. He has demonstrated an unwillingness to play hurt and the injuries prevent him from playing at a consistently high level for long stretches.


Mirotic will also be crucial. Is he closer to Nowitski or Matt Bullard. That is the question and it comes down to Paxson's ability to evaluate talent. That is really in question at this point.


Gasol is another good question. How much does he want? Also how many years does he want? Wouldn't sign him to anything more than a 2 year deal. Wouldn't pay him more than 8 per either. He may back up the truck knowing that it is the last contract he will ever sign.


Noah. What is his value with respect to the team. He needs to be more of a player and less of spiritual leader. M.L. Carr wasn't the reason the Celtics won Championships. Jack Haley also wasn't the reason the Bulls won championships either.

If he can return to the disruptive defender, rebounder, and offensive facilitator then you resign him, but if you think that his value lay solely as an emotional leader then you have to let him go to.


Not bad, LTG. I wish I trusted this management to find talent.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:53 am 
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Man Goff was all about pushing the idea Gar was getting fired. The Score totally ran with it. So much for his sources


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:10 am 
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WL Bill wrote:
Man Goff was all about pushing the idea Gar was getting fired. The Score totally ran with it. So much for his sources
I think you have to whack Gar. Some of the stuff that I've read made it clear that the whole Thibs management feud was fueled by Gar and not Paxson. Thibs and Paxson had some semblance of respect though their relationship was cool. It wasn't adverserial. Forman was another story. They hated each other. I was in favor of whacking Thibs, but I'd rather it have been more of Paxson and less Forman's call.

Paxson's personnel moves have become much more suspect since GarPax union was formed. I initially thought that Forman was merely a figurehead, but it's apparent that he has influence. Now he appears that he has a lot of influence.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:16 am 
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long time guy wrote:
WL Bill wrote:
Man Goff was all about pushing the idea Gar was getting fired. The Score totally ran with it. So much for his sources
I think you have to whack Gar. Some of the stuff that I've read made it clear that the whole Thibs management feud was fueled by Gar and not Paxson. Thibs and Paxson had some semblance of respect though their relationship was cool. It wasn't adverserial. Forman was another story. They hated each other. I was in favor of whacking Thibs, but I'd rather it have been more of Paxson and less Forman's call.

Paxson's personnel moves have become much more suspect since GarPax union was formed. I initially thought that Forman was merely a figurehead, but it's apparent that he has influence. Now he appears that he has a lot of influence.


A lot of your thoughts seem to be formed through conversations you have with yourself in your head, as opposed to through facts. I'm sure if had strong conversation with myself, I could also strongly suggest things that aren't backed up by anything other than my unique brand of stubbornness.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:16 am 
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long time guy wrote:
I think you have to whack Gar. ... I was in favor of whacking Thibs

:puker:

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:02 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
long time guy wrote:
WL Bill wrote:
Man Goff was all about pushing the idea Gar was getting fired. The Score totally ran with it. So much for his sources
I think you have to whack Gar. Some of the stuff that I've read made it clear that the whole Thibs management feud was fueled by Gar and not Paxson. Thibs and Paxson had some semblance of respect though their relationship was cool. It wasn't adverserial. Forman was another story. They hated each other. I was in favor of whacking Thibs, but I'd rather it have been more of Paxson and less Forman's call.

Paxson's personnel moves have become much more suspect since GarPax union was formed. I initially thought that Forman was merely a figurehead, but it's apparent that he has influence. Now he appears that he has a lot of influence.


A lot of your thoughts seem to be formed through conversations you have with yourself in your head, as opposed to through facts. I'm sure if had strong conversation with myself, I could also strongly suggest things that aren't backed up by anything other than my unique brand of stubbornness.


You don't make a lot of sense. I actually read that Forman and Thibs hated each other but he and Paxson were cordial because at least he knew where he stood with Paxson. Forman was more transparent in eyes of Thibs. I could pull the article but what would be the point because you'd simply ignore it anyway.

Seriously and I mean this with all due respect dude. Save your responses. Every response you make to something I post always starts and ends with the ad hominem attack against me. You sound dumb but maybe you think you will score some message board brownie points by constantly making it about me. If message board back slapping is what you seek, then I strongly suggest that you find someone else. The more you speak the dumber you sound. You didn't address any of the points that I just made, as typical it became about me and your perception that I may be delusional. Once again you sound dumb as hell making such a claim. This was an actual report.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:11 am 
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I like having a press conference while the NBA media is completely consumed with the Warriors and Kobe and Chicago Media is all about the Hawks, Cubs and Sox.


All 5 games were on while that press conference was held.

Shrewd move by the ND grad


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:26 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
I like having a press conference while the NBA media is completely consumed with the Warriors and Kobe and Chicago Media is all about the Hawks, Cubs and Sox.


All 5 games were on while that press conference was held.

Shrewd move by the ND grad


Bernsie's reaction to that is weird. One Danny would say it is PR management at its finest to go under the radar. The other calls it cowardly.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:29 am 
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pittmike wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
I like having a press conference while the NBA media is completely consumed with the Warriors and Kobe and Chicago Media is all about the Hawks, Cubs and Sox.


All 5 games were on while that press conference was held.

Shrewd move by the ND grad


Bernsie's reaction to that is weird. One Danny would say it is PR management at its finest to go under the radar. The other calls it cowardly.

Did he have a reaction or are you just guessing what he might say?


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:31 am 
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Its in the twitter muscle thread that he called it cowardly.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:34 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Its in the twitter muscle thread that he called it cowardly.

Oh, I didnt see that.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:18 am 
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... phoDXtWs9Q


Here is but an example of another of the conversations that I have with myself. You know the ones that are devoid of "facts". I will leave it at this.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:34 am 
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long time guy wrote:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwjH67uoqI7MAhVFbT4KHcCtAEAQFggpMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchicago.suntimes.com%2Fsports%2Ftime-for-bulls-gm-gar-forman-to-be-accountable-instead-of-worrying-about-his-own-self-preservation%2F&usg=AFQjCNEkz7EZwjR08neN0dTPekvj4kRGPw&sig2=lrv3AlMCHNigphoDXtWs9Q


Here is but an example of another of the conversations that I have with myself. You know the ones that are devoid of "facts". I will leave it at this.


So Gar is the fall guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:44 am 
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Just one bad year boys. The starting 5 never even practiced together one day.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:10 am 
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Gloopan Kuratz wrote:
Just one bad year boys. The starting 5 never even practiced together one day.


That would not have mattered if Thibs were the coach however.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:27 am 
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This is more than just a bad year. This was a failure from the top (primarily) to bottom. There is nothing about this team that gives you hope for next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:37 am 
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JR is a moron plain and simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:49 am 
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Nas wrote:
This is more than just a bad year. This was a failure from the top (primarily) to bottom. There is nothing about this team that gives you hope for next year.


The rehiring of Thibs would.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire GarPax
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:10 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
This is more than just a bad year. This was a failure from the top (primarily) to bottom. There is nothing about this team that gives you hope for next year.


The rehiring of Thibs would.


Thibs ain't coming back and even if he didn't leave this team wasn't good enough to win a championship.

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