Those pitchers don't go out knowing if they give up 2 runs they will probably lose. The guy has given up 1 run or less 35 times in his career. His run support in his losses is awful. Kershaw has received 52 runs of support in his 11 starts and fewer than 3 runs in only 3 starts.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Give me a rotation full of guys that will give up 2 runs or less 60% of the time (1 run or less 26%) and more than 4 runs 10% of the time and my team would probably win the World Series every year.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

It's funny that we argue that wins for pitchers don't matter when in fact wins for the team are really the only thing that matters. So if we look at a team's record in games in which a pitcher starts, that would probably be the most relevant stat.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

It's not that simple. Some pitchers have a 5 ERA but have winning records. Then you have a guy like Quintana that everything outside or Wins and Losses says he is a great pitcher. His career 3 ERA is good enough for a losing record though.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

why is it that hitters are irrelevant?

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

_________________
Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

No it's not that simple, and I get it. But you understand that we all argue about stats and streaks and comparables, when in the end, the winning the game is the only thing that matters.

If the Sox aren't winning games in which Quintana pitches, then it doesn't matter how good he is. You'd be better off with Jason Marquis 2004 Red Bird style.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

By talking about pitchers we are, in effect, also discussing hitters. One man's "run support" is another man's ERA.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

hitters should get wins and losses.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Any given hitter is fractionally as important as a starting pitcher.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Thank you.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

End of argument. Any manager would take such a pitcher as a # 2. What's his average IP?

_________________

JORR, if I told you a pitcher had given up 1 run or less in 35 starts, 2 runs or fewer in 80 starts and this same pitcher has given up more than 4 runs only 14 times in 133 starts, you would assume that at worst this pitcher is an all star and probably an elite pitcher. You wouldn't assume that he has a losing record for his career and less than 40 wins. You also wouldn't believe that a guy with a 2 ERA with 10+ starts is a .500 pitcher.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

At least 6 innings every start

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

That's an interesting argument I have seen you make before.

So....you wouldn't bet on Quintana, then?

_________________

You can have Quintana. I'll take Aaron Sele.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That's what I thought.

God, in the game against the Yankees, he made three bad pitches. Sox couldn't score. Q gets the loss.

_________________

I'm calling bullshit on this one. Aaron Sele was all promise & little delivery. A guy begging to be overpaid.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I guess it depends on what the number was. I don't hate Quintana. He's just not a winner. He's certainly not great.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Aaron Sele was pretty good, I and I used to wish the Sox would get him....he dodged George Bell, too. Anyway, I was always surprised that his numbers weren't better.

Still, Sele played on teams with real offenses.

_________________

LOL! You are a stubborn guy.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I wonder if they did what they did to James Baldwin and dropped him to # 4 if his win total would increase. They ain't got anyone to be a # 2 or # 3, though.

_________________

Sele has a .570 winning percentage in over 300 starts. He received an inordinate amount of "run support" throughout his career. I don't think Sele was a great pitcher. The point I'm trying to make is that if there is a guy out there who somehow has his team score six runs every time he steps on the mound, and that goes on season after season, at some point, I'm not going to argue with that magic or whatever the fuck it is. And I'd say the same about Quintana in reverse.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

In the baseball world of JORR the only stats that matter for a pitcher is W and L.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Sele has a ERA of 4.61 and a WHIP that never went anywhere near 1.2 in any season (usually 1.5+). He was just like Frank Tanana (iirc), an average at best pitcher for 30 starts and good for two others. He missed no bats and like you said, received an inordinate amount of run support. I wouldn't even credit him for "magic". I really think the writers always saw his promise, the story of a farm boy plucked from Minnesota and just lazily kept writing the story lines to match the myth.

He aspired to be Bob Welch, a more even trade for Quintana imo.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I don't discount it. Hell how many guys did you play with that just somehow found a way to be that "ok" guy that kept your teams hanging around to be able to win the less than bright light games all the time. It was posted above, but James Baldwin for a couple of years that just seemed to embody "that" guy.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

That's fine but a guy like Quintana should be an exception to the rule. Just like Sale to a certain extent. The Sox offense hurts their records. Sale is a top 5 pitcher but he's only won 14 games once.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

You want Quintana starting Game 2 of ALCS or WS? I don't .

_________________
Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

That he's always been a 5.2-6.2 inning, low K guy until this year always had him safely within the rule for me. This year, if his start & workload holds, we'll be in agreement.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

He's having his best year and it still ain't that great.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don