If a pitcher gives up 1 or less 35 times in my baseball world that guy should win 25 to 30 of those games. If a pitcher gives up 2 runs or less 80 times in my baseball world that guy should win 55 to 60 of those games. If a pitcher gives up 4 runs or less in 90% of his starts in my baseball world that guy should win the majority of his games.

Now we're getting somewhere. Horlen pitched for mostly good teams (and a couple really bad ones). The reason his team didn't hit is closely related to the reason he allowed so few runs. It was very difficult to hit in Comiskey Park at that time. His low ERAs and WHIPs belied the fact that he was a rather ordinary pitcher which was illustrated by his W/L record.

I wonder if anyone here wants to argue that Joel Horlen was a better pitcher than Catfish Hunter.

This registered sex offender I regularly converse with on the internet just said something really stupid

Comiskey was always hard to hit in, but the teams Horlen played on in the 60s (especially in the mid-60s) were egregiously bad. The Swingin' A's had a monster lineup and were dominant. I'd obviously take Hunter, but comparing the two isn't fair, so it doesn't take away from Horlen.

one these days people will give up arguing wins with jorr. unfortunately a sucker is born every minute.

The Sox should have won in '64. They won 98 games. And 90-some the next year too. Those teams looked like they were all pitching because it was so difficult to hit in that park. We can't give a guy like Horlen credit for all those numbers that were caused largely by the park while calling the hitters bums too, can we? It was hard to hit there. Hard to hit Horlen. Hard to hit anybody. But Horlen's W/L record showed you who he was.

This registered sex offender I regularly converse with on the internet just said something really stupid

A good number three man in a decent rotation.

I blame Chris Sale for not being good enough to win 14 games more than once. He's clearly not a top 5 pitcher. A great pitcher should be able to win more than 13 games. Bartolo Colon has been a better pitcher the past 3 years.

Neither Sale nor Quintana nor Arrieta will have the career Colon has.

I blame Chris Sale for not being good enough to win 14 games more than once. He's clearly not a top 5 pitcher. A great pitcher should be able to win more than 13 games. Bartolo Colon has been a better pitcher the past 3 years.

This registered sex offender I regularly converse with on the internet just said something really stupid

Who had a better career Jamie Moyer or Johan Santana?

Now you're just talking smack. Sale has a .600 + winning percentage. Bartolo Colon is a great pitcher.

JORR has me half-convinced overall, but having seen the majority of Quintana's starts, it's hard for me not to conclude that the guy's a hell of a pitcher.

Santana. There aren't many guys with a .640 winning percentage. And he led the league in ERA three times.

I hope you're not comparing Colon to Moyer though. I'd say Colon had a better career than Santana, though obviously not a better peak.

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Jose Quintana replaces Danny Salazar on the AL All-Star roster.

Yes it is.

When this is all over, which is not going to be for a while, Trump will be re-elected President.

Losing pitcher is an all star? How is that possible?

I've always been on JORR's side on the W-L debate and will be until playoff teams are decided by some other stat. I'm hoping they switch to Pythagorean W-L record.

Addison Russell standard.

W-L for starting pitchers is how they determine playoff teams, now? No Decisions must really be a bitch to account for then.

Should we check and see how many starting rotations with losing records make the playoffs?

He's been a better pitcher than Sale the past 3 years based on the way you rate pitchers. Maxing out at 13 wins is the sign of a mediocre pitcher in your world.

There's a long list of great pitching staffs that just didn't get enough run support...