Neither have you since you can't grasp why Javy Vazquez was better than Buehrle.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Wrong person.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I respect the consistency of thought of Juice's Lecture Notes.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I do too because they are rational.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

_________________

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Quintana and Neal pitched in the the same game in the same park on the same day with the same plate umpire and they both faced offenses that have averaged roughly 4 runs per game over 120+ game samples. I'm not sure where Jason Hammel, Tiger Woods, and Furious Styles fit into that, but I have no problem stating unequivocally that Quintana pitched better. Of course, for consistency purposes you should probably be arguing that Neal just "lacked run support".

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Quintana gives up 2 runs or less 2/3 of the time and Zach Neal gives up 4 runs or more 2/3 of the time. We aren't comparing the same thing.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

We're talking about yesterday's game. Didn't poor Neal lack run support?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He gave up 4 runs like he has done 2/3 of his time as a starter.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Run support isn't a single game idea. It is an average of how many runs a team scores in your starts, while you are 'on the mound.'

For disclosure purposes, Zach Neal gets 2.8 RS/9IP when he starts.

As a starter, he allows opposing hitters a .907 OPS and a .317 BA. He has a 7.91 ERA in those 19.1 innings and a 1.397 WHIP.

So no...Zach Neal's issues aren't run support. As you can see here:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... 016&t=p#rs

Zach Neal has given up an insurmountable amount of runs even when the Oakland A's have provided him some runs. This is the opposite of how the White Sox offense supports Quintana.

EDIT: http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... p#rs_extra

When the White Sox score 3+ runs for Jose Quintana, he is 10-1 this season. The White Sox offense averages 4.01 runs per game overall. Reason and logic would say that Jose Quintana should be way over .500. But this is why Quintana's record is an aberration.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

But what about his support? Should he be expected to win with only two runs of support? Poor Neal.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

If Neal was giving up 2 or fewer runs 2/3 of his starts we could have a debate about his run support. This is just another one of your ridiculous arguments in support of your ridiculous stance on Quintana.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

It's not my argument though. It's actually your ridiculous argument in favor of Quintana simply applied to another pitcher after a another mediocre outing.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

As one could have guessed after weeks of this, you have no idea what our argument is.

Quintana gives up approximately a third of the runs Neal does in their respective innings pitched. Both get approximately the same amount of run support from their teams.

No one would be arguing that Quintana is a good pitcher if he gave up 7.xx earned runs per 9 innings.

Run support has nothing to do with how good or bad a pitcher is. It explains pitcher W-L, however.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Actually, you don't seem to know what your own argument is. Or is "lack of run support" something that only applies to Jose Quintana?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Read the exposition, good sir.

When you've been found to be ignorant in a certain subject matter, it does you no favors to a dig a hole and criticize the other side.

I think we've found the real reason that this discussion will never progress; you don't understand the discussion.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I think being wrong is more of the problem. Sometimes those absolutes come back and bite you in the ass.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

The only guy that has argued your "side" consistently and well is JLN, so let's not talk about who is ignorant. It seems you and your big bro Nas don't understand the discussion, otherwise you'd be supporting the position that Vazquez was better than Buerhle. That takes consistency and balls though, because anyone with even a cursory interest in the game knows how silly it is.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

We're talking about yesterday's game. Did they get the same amount of "run support"?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Vazquez and Buerhle are extremely similar. They split career statistics very easily. One is better in ERA+, the other has better FIP (likely due to K/BB). WHIP is almost even. We've had this discussion already.

I give Buehrle the edge because I weight ERA+ slightly more than some other statistics.

edit: easily should be evenly

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

They are in no way similar. And suggesting that they are, while consistent with an idiotic position, in no way makes one less than ignorant about the game or the way it is actually played.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Thank you for your opinion. I'm sure we're better for having seen it.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

As has been pointed out MANY times Quintana is an outlier. He gives up 2 runs or fewer nearly 70% of time and gives up 3 or fewer runs 90% of the time. Vasquez was boom or bust. He lacked consistency.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Do we only use averages when they suit us? Now you seem to be flipping to my side of the argument. That the numbers only mean something relative to the other numbers in the games in which they were created. Why are you punishing Vazquez for when his hits were allowed? Isn't that just luck?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'm making the same argument that I have always made. As I've said MANY times before if Quintana was a boom or bust pitcher we wouldn't be having this discussion. Fact is he's consistently good.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Will I eventually be forced to pick a side in this?

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But that is antithetical to the prevailing SABRmetric philosophy that values run differential and denies the existence of "clutch", isn't it? Are you really going to argue now that when the runs are scored makes a difference? Because that's my entire argument on why Quintana isn't as good as you suggest he is.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

No one cares what you think.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014