We have this one today, too, race fans at 1 1/2 mi. Race 9 at Kentucky Downs. 5:39 p.m. PT.

1. Rum Tum Tugger 30/1 -

2. Bullards Alley 10/1 -

3. Seve's Road 6/1 -

4. Life's Journey 8/1 -

5. Behesht (FR) 10/1 -

6. Power Foot 6/1 -

7. Da Big Hoss 7/5 -

8. Verger 50/1 -

9. Greengrassofyoming 7/2

Da Big Hoss is supposed to be very strong. This one looks a heck of a lot more interesting than the Super Derby.

Bullards Alley

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Damn thank you wwn, i was drowning in Gereaux and the wps bet on #2 saved my ass. Still wouldve been nice to be up but i will take staying alive.

the 2 paid more to place than Da Big Hoss did to WPS...you're learning

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

I had the worst bad beat on this race.

Had Da Big Boss, Bullard's Alley and Greengrassofwyoming in my tri-fecta. Greengrassofwyoming is leading Rum Tum Tugger in 3rd position with a 1/16 mi. to go but is overtaken before the wire.

When I watched this race, I could have sworn the jockey for Greengrassofwyoming pulled on the reins. The horse flies by Rum Tum with about 1 1/8 to go and then doesn't sustain the lead. I couldn't understand for the life of me what the jockey was doing except wanting to get beat. Either that jockey was completely inept or he was fixing the race. Yes, I dare say it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmoWi4nHG_g

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

I quit betting the ponies in 1985 after I watched the great Dave Magee pulled back on the reins and lose at the wire.

Some level of horse racing is fixed. How much are you willing to accept and still bet?

_________________

Tetrick was always the one that fucked me over. If I bet him he always lost it at the end and when I got pissed off enough at him and stopped betting him he always came thru riding the winner.

_________________

Good question.

This is the first instance where I thought I saw the jockey not trying his hardest or doing something to slow the horse down. So I'm still undecided at this point.

I think with the G1 and G2 races, they're not going to try to get away with this kind of stuff. Rum Tum Tugger had raced only twice before this one, and there was video on neither, unless if you had a paid account. He was 30-1 shot, which most would discount in handicapping for that reason alone. On the other hand, Greengrassofwyoming was a horse I thought could compete to win. 1 1/2 mi. is his sweet spot, if you look at the times. And you could see him coming on at the end when he went past Rum Tum. There was no reason this horse could not have taken second in this race.

But it's not like a bad beat in horse racing is unheard of either. I still like the way I handicapped the race. I had three out of the four, and Seve's Road was the one that I had that didn't hit the board. He had been good at this distance, finishing only about three back behind Hard Aces in a race earlier this year, who's competitive in the G1 class.

I'm sure JORR will say I am just seeing things, and maybe he's right.

Nobody is in the tank going for 600 grand. Of that I can assure you.

Of course guys have tried to fix races and sometimes succeeded, but the reward has to be worth the risk. In the heyday of harness racing in New York there was one trifecta a night and the pool was huge. If you knew the favorite was going to be off the board you could do business. It's not that easy to "fix" a race.

I find it somewhat funny that Seacrest believes Magee pulled a horse up before the wire. You couldn't be that obvious and get away with it. And I'm not telling you Magee never participated in these things, although his reputation is and always has been that of a Boy Scout. He was driving the off the board favorite in the bad race that got Brian Pelling kicked out of Chicago, but no one ever really questioned him. Sometimes when a guy is "pulling the reins back", the horse is completely empty and spitting the bit and the driver is trying to get him to take hold for one last push.

There are a lot less "bad" races now that the pools are smaller. It just isn't worth getting caught. But that makes a place like Hawthorne where the handle is still relatively good and the purses are tiny a place that is ripe for cheaters.

Most of the cheating you see in racing today is just the opposite. Guys doing any fucking thing to win. Drugging the shit out of some poor animal. Like when Baffert embarrassed the sport at Saratoga last month.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Basically anytime I lose its because the driver was in the tank and anytime I win its because I'm a damn fine handicapper.

_________________

You just described 90% of all the guys at any racetrack.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Pelling got kicked out of California and Illinois let him race ..duh

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

I'm just glad to hear JORR finally acknowledge cheating in horse racing.

I don't throw my money at a rigged deal. I'm glad it happened back then. It taught me a good lesson at a young enough age to learn it.

_________________

There's cheating anywhere there's money to be made.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

i saw all those big shots at the OTB i was at for the kentucky derby. i was laughing heartily as they crumpled up their tickets.

i know that i suck...i'm just happy as hell whenever i get one right. most of the time it's because of you guys!

I missed that. What did Baffert do?

Whatever the fuck he put in Arrogate and Defrong was absolutely shameful. It's one thing when guys like Scott Lake jack up a claimer, but what Baffert did on one of racing's biggest stages is criminal.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I see your point. Or maybe he just got lucky with the next Secretariat.

Back on this race, there's no doubt in my mind now the jockey and track rigged it. Greengrassofwyoming at 7/2 was one of three favorites along with the Da Big Boss at 1/9 and Seve's Rd. at 6-1. By having the horse finish where it did in 4th, it not only busted the tri-fecta bets, but took away a sure show bet that would have paid out even or higher. So the track only had to pay the heavy, heavy favorite, plus Bullard's Alley (10-1) for show and the paltry exacta payout. There was no damage for the track beyond that, which is why they did it.

I wrote to the track today and here is the response from the Kentucky Downs racing manager.

"After reviewing the replay many times with a regional manager from the Jockeys' Guild, we observed Julien Leparoux continuing to persevere by using the crop and hand riding as he attempted to pass Rum Tum Tuggger. It appeared to us that Greengrassofyoming tired or flattened out under urging. Leparoux never pulled back on the reigns but continued to urge the horse without further response. "

Leparoux did nothing in further urging the horse. He had struck the horse several times en route to passing Rum Tum Tugger. Then he mysteriously stopped, letting Rum Tum Tugger come back, just as the camera angle on the video replay changed from a wide side angle to hard-to-view rear angle.

What B.S.

Look at this I just got.

"I understand your frustration and will bring this matter up to the stewards for their review. As a fellow horseplayer myself, I also feel matters like these should be examined more carefully.

I will follow up with anything that comes from the stewards."

"Fight the Power!"

I've tried my best to explain parimutuels. Someone else wanna give it a shot? Walt? spmack?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The Morning lines is a guess at what the odds will be the odds are set by dopes like me that bet money on the race ...got it?

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Yes, I've heard you before talk about how only a few horses try in any given race. The rest just gallop. Is that what you meant here?

But the racing manager is agreeing with me that what the jockey did was dubious. He did not urge his horse on, which he's obligated to do.

One decent race this weekend, the G1 Northern Dancer Turf Stakes with Big Blue Kitten. Turf doesn't seem JORR's cup of tea, though.

take that bitch

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

No, I've never said that only a few horses try in a given race. What I've said is that it is difficult to have a horse primed for his best effort race after race, so a good trainer maps out a schedule and decides where he wants to point the horse for his premium effort. That doesn't mean that he doesn't want to win the other races, but he may have given the jockey instructions to race the horse a certain way. There are reasons not to go all out to win a particular race that have nothing to do with "stiffing" or cashing a bet. And I don't think many horses are racing for 600 grand and not trying to get as big a piece of the purse as they can.

I do think it's great that the racing board is addressing your concerns. That's what they should do.

What I'm talking about is that you have repeatedly made statements that suggest you are under the belief that the track stands to make more money depending on which horse wins. And that is simply not true. The track only cares about two things- handle and take-out. Handle is how much is bet on the race and take-out is the amount that is taken out of the pool and split between the track, the purses, and the state. Take-out is just the commission that the track takes for handling the money. Which horse wins the race has no significance for the track except in an instance where there is a minus pool. The law in every state requires a minimum payoff of a nickel on a dollar bet. A minus pool occurs when there is not enough money bet on the other horses to cover the bets made on the favorite. In that case, the track must make up the difference. That is why in some circumstances you will see that the track has requested and received permission from the racing board to eliminate show or sometimes even place wagering. Occasionally a horse is actually barred from the wagering although I have not seen that in a long time.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I missed that. What did Baffert do?[/quote]

Whatever the fuck he put in Arrogate and Defrong was absolutely shameful. It's one thing when guys like Scott Lake jack up a claimer, but what Baffert did on one of racing's biggest stages is criminal.[/quote]

I see your point. Or maybe he just got lucky with the next Secretariat.

Back on this race, there's no doubt in my mind now the jockey and track rigged it. Greengrassofwyoming at 7/2 was one of three favorites along with the Da Big Boss at 1/9 and Seve's Rd. at 6-1. By having the horse finish where it did in 4th, it not only busted the tri-fecta bets, but took away a sure show bet that would have paid out even or higher. So the track only had to pay the heavy, heavy favorite, plus Bullard's Alley (10-1) for show and the paltry exacta payout. There was no damage for the track beyond that, which is why they did it.[/quote]

I've tried my best to explain parimutuels. Someone else wanna give it a shot? Walt? spmack?[/quote]

Yes, I've heard you before talk about how only a few horses try in any given race. The rest just gallop. Is that what you meant here?

But the racing manager is agreeing with me that what the jockey did was dubious. He did not urge his horse on, which he's obligated to do.

One decent race this weekend, the G1 Northern Dancer Turf Stakes with Big Blue Kitten. Turf doesn't seem JORR's cup of tea, though.[/quote]

No, I've never said that only a few horses try in a given race. What I've said is that it is difficult to have a horse primed for his best effort race after race, so a good trainer maps out a schedule and decides where he wants to point the horse for his premium effort. That doesn't mean that he doesn't want to win the other races, but he may have given the jockey instructions to race the horse a certain way. There are reasons not to go all out to win a particular race that have nothing to do with "stiffing" or cashing a bet. And I don't think many horses are racing for 600 grand and not trying to get as big a piece of the purse as they can.

I do think it's great that the racing board is addressing your concerns. That's what they should do.

What I'm talking about is that you have repeatedly made statements that suggest you are under the belief that the track stands to make more money depending on which horse wins. And that is simply not true. The track only cares about two things- handle and take-out. Handle is how much is bet on the race and take-out is the amount that is taken out of the pool and split between the track, the purses, and the state. Take-out is just the commission that the track takes for handling the money. Which horse wins the race has no significance for the track except in an instance where there is a minus pool. The law in every state requires a minimum payoff of a nickel on a dollar bet. A minus pool occurs when there is not enough money bet on the other horses to cover the bets made on the favorite. In that case, the track must make up the difference. That is why in some circumstances you will see that the track has requested and received permission from the racing board to eliminate show or sometimes even place wagering. Occasionally a horse is actually barred from the wagering although I have not seen that in a long time.[/quote]
No Show betting in the Woodbine Mile as I had mentioned in another thread

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Yeah, see, Rube, Woodbine is afraid there could be a minus show pool on Tepin.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yeah, I'm a fucking American. I prefer my horses racing on dirt. But I do enjoy betting maidens regardless of surface and I also like 1-1/16 turf races.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I like the dirt races better myself. But I don't care for the short races, turf or dirt, like the Woodbine mile coming up.

This Northern Dancer Turf Stakes looks interesting at 9 furlongs. Big Blue Kitten will probably be the favorite, but is now trading off his legacy, where he hasn't been a factor this year. At eight years old, I'd put him in the washed-up category. You might make the same case for the Pizza Man. I think the M/L will be way off, where you should be able to scoop up some of the longshots at cheap prices and these longshots might turn out to be the best horses. There's a few surprises in the field.