This would certainly change things a bit. Could you imagine a Lakers-Suns series?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3232862

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I know Marion requested a trade and Banks contract is ridiculous to the fiscally conservative suns, but this trade is very stupid. I wouldnt absorb marion's contract if I were the Heat, and I wouldnt want Shaq if I were the Suns. The Heat should start an immediate rebuilding program(See the Hornets circa 2004) and the Suns should stick with the better player(Marion by far) and try to win a title this season. The NBA is as wide open as it has ever been, and they have as good a chance as any. I think this trade would be a disaster(actually for both teams involved) and i wouldnt touch it if I were Kerr.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Totally agree. FF, Marion can opt out of his deal this year which he most likey will, so it's great for the Heat. Of course, Marion probably won't be able to match what he's making right now on the open market, so he might not opt out but even worse case you're only on the hook one more year and even with just Wade & Marion they should be able to win some games

Phoenix is clearly obsessed with the fact that they can't matchup with Duncan and don't have a physical presence down low. I think that's ridiculous, they play a certain style for better or for worse, they should continue to commit to that instead of trying to adjust to other teams. I agree this is foolish for the Suns. I can't believe they couldn't have gotten something better if they were intent on trading Marion

They don't want him to run, he's just going to stand underneath the basket on the defensive end while they play 4 on 5 on offense

Extremely dumb trade for the Suns, and Marion must really be a tool behind the scenes as well. I realize the Suns still have Diaw and Grant Hill to play SF, but this trade looks to me like a drastic change in style if you're looking to accomodate O'Neal into the team. The question is why. He's big, out of shape, consistently injured, and a shell of the player he once was.

After thinking more about this I dont think the trade sucks as much as I initially thought. Marion will never be the 2nd best player on a championship team, and the Suns as they were constructed were not going to win a title. I think if Shaq can remain healthy for the entire playoffs, he can give them the defensive presence underneath against teams like the Jazz and Spurs. I still dont think the Suns will win a championship, but their window was closing soon anyway with Nash and I think Shaq probably gives them a better chance than Marion if he can hit the Rejuvenation Machine for a couple months this spring. His numbers and play have not better terrible this season, and he was injured(when is he not) and was playing on an awful team.

I guess my main point is that it was a huge gamble because I dont know how much Shaq has left and if he can stay healthy. Their biggest mistake was getting rid of Kurt Thomas. He kept them in that Spurs series with his defense/rebounding. Now they are the worst in the NBA in rebounding and it forced them to take a huge gamble like this.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Seems like a panic move from a team that doesn't think they can win a title with the current players.

If Shaq can return close to his form of a couple years ago then this would be a great gamble. The odds of that are not good though.

I'd still love to see a Kobe vs. Shaq series.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm not sure. They came awfully close to knocking off the Spurs (and we can assume they would have had more than a decent chance of beating the Jazz) had it not been for the Amare suspension.

And I agree with BD, Marion must really be a tool

I'm firmly in the middle on this deal. With this trade, the Suns can move Amare to the 4 and move Shaq to the middle. This might be great in a 7 game series against the Spurs, but the way the team runs the ball, Shaq better take the rest of the regular season off to be ready. In his hey day, he could run the floor as good as any big man. I dont think he has it in him anymore. I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire after the season if he was in phoenix. For Miami, the deal makes sense. You have to rebuild sometime.

A HUGE difference was Kurt Thomas vs. Grant Hill. I know Kurt Thomas isnt flashy and doesnt put up big numbers, but he was the only one on that team who could hang with Duncan 1v1. This season Duncan has killed them and thats the big differnce. Grant Hill is a great player and would be fantastic on a team like SA, but on the Suns he improves them in areas they are already among the best in the league at. A core of a healthy Shaq, Nash, Hill, Amare, Barbosa, Diaw, and Bell will be better able to beat San Antonio then if they kept Marion and didnt have Shaq.

Like I said its a big gamble, but I have never been a big fan of Marion's.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If this trade does go down, it will be interesting to see how Marion plays without Nash. On that team, though, with Wade, it will be pretty hard for him to put up big numbers.

The second part of that is true, the first part couldnt be more false and that was one of the biggest reasons for the trade.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Its been well known around the league that Marion has been pushing for a trade ever since Nash won his first MVP and Marion made the comment that he was the mvp of the team. He's a me first guy, was by many accounts a cancer in the locker room. In an interview a few years ago with ESPN the Magazine they asked him if he'd rather be a superstar on a bad team or a decent player on a championship. His reply was hmm Id have to think about that.....we would still be in the playoffs though right? Thats an embarrassingly selfish quote that Im surprised didnt get more attention. I'd rather have Shaq for the next two years, people thought he might be washed up when he went to Miami, I still think if hes healthy he has enough in the tank this spring to help get them by the Spurs/Whoever else they need to. A Lakers/Suns series with everyone healthy sounds exciting as hell.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Shaq has a no trade clause and was more than willing to go.

Yes, Shaq needs to get in better shape and some might say that during the season is not the time to do it, but Shaq will have a huge positive impact on that team, especially in the playoffs.

The West is almost like another league at this point. If Detroit and LeBron went to the West this would feel very very ABA'ish

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Ive heard from a couple different places that Shaq actually has his lowest body fat percentage in a decade.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Chris Paul had 42 points, 9 assists, 8 steals, 5 boards, 1 turnover. he shot 18-33. Are we still having people on here say Kidd and Nash are better?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yep, must be a contract year.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Well I have seem all of them play plenty of times this season and I think its clear that Paul is the best PG in the NBA. He's the MVP of the league right now.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Nas this isnt a rookie. Look at his previous years stats. Watch some Hornets games. You mentioned Baron's defense, well CP leads the league in SPG and has had great defensive games against Nash and Kidd in the past couple months. David West owes his All Star nomination to CP pretty much. I understand if you dont think AP is better than LT or even top 3, but theres too much of a body of work here to deny. It just seems foolish. By practically every barometer we have to measure PG's(team success, ast/to, PER, etc.) CP wins. He is just a better player and alot of media members say he is the best young PG in the league since a young Isaiah. I dont know about that but I can see it. Hes putting up pretty damn historic numbers for being this young. Just face it, the AP analogy doesnt work, its not like Im saying Durant or Horford are the best at their position.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Paul Vs. Nash

Nash is better in transition, does more flashy highlight alley oop type passes, is a better 3 point shooter. Paul plays way better defense, not even comparable, is better in a halfcourt set by far, turns the ball over alot less and raises his teammates play just as much. Paul is a slightly better rebounder.

Paul's PER 26.46
Nash's PER 23.31

Paul vs Kidd

Kidd is a better rebounder(although Chris Paul gets back on transition defense quicker, whereas Kidd plays under the basket more which could hurt his team if the other team gets the board and makes quick outlet passes). Their court vision is comparable, although its hard to imagine someones being better than Kidd. Kidd is a great lock down defender, but Paul is also. Kidd has proven he can get it done in the playoffs(I know he hasnt won a ring but hes come close and he always raises his game in the playoffs), we have to see how Paul will do when the time comes. Paul is a much better shooter, Kidd is shooting an embarrassing 36% from the field and Kidd turns the ball over more. Thats why I would give the edge to Paul with the rest being close to equal.

Paul's PER 26.46
Kidd's PER 20.54

Paul vs. Baron

Baron is immediately a bit suspicious because he can never stay healthy and then all of a sudden he does and its in a contract year. Baron is a good, but streaky, outside shooter, among the best in the league at getting to the rim and dishing it out or going up for the foul shot. He doesnt turn the ball over as much as Nash or Kidd despite playing a very uptempo style of play. His shooting overall is not too good from the field or from the free throw line, and although having a fantastic season he still has a tendency to mail in games(See the Detroit game earlier this season) Paul is a much better shooter, does a better job of making his teammates better, especially in a half court situation, is a better on the ball defender although Baron is a good one and plays the passing lanes as well as anybody. Paul overall is just a bit better than Baron in most relevant categories

Paul's PER 26.46
Baron's PER 23.21

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yeah but you do realize that despite Nash's recent back to back run, its very rare for a PG to win MVP and Paul is having one of the best PG seasons in recent memory, better than Nash's in either season he won it. Nash is a tremendous offensive player and leader, but his defense just doesnt even compare to Paul's whereas Paul's offensive game ranks up there with any guard in the league.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Hes a better scorer and rebounder? Well his team plays at a much more uptempo style than the Hornets do, so he has much possessions. Baron is not a better scorer, he just shoots alot more, CP averages 1 ppg less, and his FG% and FT% are significantly higher. he is a much more efficient player than Baron is, Baron's career FG% is 41%, thats pretty awful. I never said the Hornets would be fighting for a playoff spot, I knew how good they had potential to be before the year started. You usually dont say things that come across as ignorant as "CP's numbers peaked this season" when the guy is 22 fucking years old. That sounds idiotic. Hes just starting what could be a HOF career.

You know what hasnt been consistent for 8 years? Baron Davis staying on the court, and that also has to factor into the equation. I love watching Baron play and think he a tremendous player, but Hes not on Chris Paul's level and realistically, has never had a season in his 8 years that compares to Paul's this season.



First of all how are Baron's numbers better than Paul's? PER wraps all the stats up into one big stat and Paul's is clearly better. Second, its 50 games into the season and Paul's numbers have actually increased since November. He's also 22 and getting better by the day. This debate seems silly and isnt anywhere close to the AP/LT debate.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Nas I know you are more informed than you are leading on. Dont compare Baron's first 8 seasons to Paul's, thats just disingenuine because obviously it takes players a year or two to develop and get strong numbers. Paul's stats have been getting better and better the more he plays and hes 22. Baron is like 29 or 30, not sure and obviously hes been a solid all star caliber player for his career. Chris Paul is 22, why would you think his numbers will drop, that is idiotic. Name another player that peaked when he was 22 and in his third season and his numbers dropped from then on.

Im very surprised any informed NBA fan would say Baron is better than CP. You can manipulate the comparisons as much as you would like but at the end of the day all the stats point to CP being the better player. And he's only going to get better.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Jon Bender?

I cant wait to watch Baron Davis in the All Star game this year.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Michael Olowokandi?

He definitely is, and only a narrow minded person would imply he peaked in his 3rd season, ranking him on 1 category alone.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I was being facetious, but seriously, there are alot of players that peak at 22, look at all the good college seniors that don't amount to a hill of beans in the pros. Steve Alford, Bobby Hurley come to mind right away.

I don't think that's really a fair comparison there...you should be talking about players who actually made it to the pros, did well for a year or two, then failed

Yes I know Hurley was in the NBA and had injuries so maybe he would have been better, but by your statement we could include thousands of players.

By the way, I'm staying out of this argument but I think you could make a case for both CP and BD...clearly BD has the tenure as Nas has been saying but on the other hand Paul...I don't know...I don't see him regressing anytime soon. I guess if I could distill it to one statement, I'd probably take BD right now, but if I were starting a team and could pick either of the two, I'd clearly take Paul. I think he clearly has the potential to be better than BD.

I don't even think he peaked.