It wouldn't even be hard for me to name a dozen NBA players less athletic than Welker, and he's a retired NFL player.

Weird, I see Dolphin looking in my asshole

It wouldn't even be hard for me to name a dozen NBA players less athletic than Welker, and he's a retired NFL player.

Yeah but those dozen NBA players you'd name wouldn't be the equivalent of Welker, a four time All Pro an five time pro bowler. And that's the point - you don't need to be freakishly athletic to make it in the NFL. And I don't mean make it to the league, I mean succeed and thrive.

I'm not sure how athletic a guy like Draymond Green is compared to Welker. I guess we'd have to look up their combine or pre draft workout numbers. But I think you're underestimating Welker's athleticism significantly.

He was undrafted - obviously the combine numbers didn't knock anyone's socks off. There are only three NBA players I can think of in recent memory who became all stars, and even flirted with greatness, that were virtually ignored by the league on draft day: Nick Van Exel, Green, and Gilbert Arenas. There are plenty of All Pros in the NFL who were similarly ignored in draft day.

I think the issue depends upon how we define "athleticism". When you take a guy like Shaq or Wilt and look at the things they could do at their size, that's extreme athleticism. Are those non-hitting motherfuckers that Kenny Williams loves to draft more "athletic" than a guy like Kyle Schwarber who clearly has far superior hand-eye coordination even though he is a fat little dumpling?

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

That's exactly the point I was trying to make initially but FF conveniently tried to sweep under the rug. The conversation is wholly dependent on what we consider athleticism.

Its not that difficult to figure out unless you are new to following sports. Every draft they talk about skill vs athleticism. Schwarber is a fat shit but he can crush the ball. That's skill. That guy who could BASE jump out of swimming pools that the Bears drafted but couldn't play a down in the league - that's athleticism. It's tangible physical attributes like strength, speed, agility, hand eye coordination, endurance, sox, with your height and weight factored in. It's not "shooting threes" and "hitting home runs". I thought all of this was a given.

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

Its not that difficult to figure out unless you are new to following sports. Every draft they talk about skill vs athleticism. Schwarber is a fat shit but he can crush the ball. That's skill. That guy who could BASE jump out of swimming pools that the Bears drafted but couldn't play a down in the league - that's athleticism. It's tangible physical attributes like strength, speed, agility, hand eye coordination, endurance, sox, with your height and weight factored in. It's not "shooting threes" and "hitting home runs". I thought all of this was a given.

So Kyle Schwarber can crush a baseball simply because he worked hard? Or is it due to natural ability? If it's natural ability, how is it not athleticism?

Some people are naturally great at mathematics and playing the piano. How are mathematicians and pianists not athletes?

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

You seem to be going back and forth there though. Agility and hand-eye coordination obviously play a big part in Schwarber being able to strike the ball where "more athletic" guys like Courtney Hawkins cannot, which suggests to me that perhaps Hawkins isn't actually more athletic at all.

Because that's not remotely close to hitting a baseball. You cited hand-eye coordination as an athletic attribute. Is it not safe to assume that any good professional hitter has great hand-eye coordination?

Here you go, FF. This is only ten players, seven if you exclude the QBs. Regardless, this proves the NBA has a higher ceiling when it comes to physical traits than the NFL does. You can make it in the NFL if you have some basic athletic ability, intelligence, and a good system around you. In the NBA you need height and/or above average athleticism. I've got more players to point to but this is only the tip of the iceberg. This would never happen in the NBA:

http://www.foxsports.com/southwest/gall ... ory-040716

Who is a good NFL example of this then?

I mean, of course you get guys like Chris Conte who spend a career being bad but even he ran a 4.53 40 yard dash at the combine.

For comparison, Kirk Hinrich did 23.5 yards in 3.10.

It's a little unfair both ways to compare those numbers but I would say it is very likely Chris Conte is much faster than Kirk Hinrich.

Well, that's not the right inference to make there. It suggests to me Schwarber is better at baseball. Are you really going to follow this through to it's absurd logical conclusion and suggest Kyle Schwarber is a better athlete than Ashton Eaton because he can hit a baseball further?

But what is it that makes him better at baseball? It's not magic. It's a certain kind of athletic ability. It's a type of athleticism that's more important in baseball.

At this point you're simply talking about skill. Athleticism would have to apply to more than one specific sport. Strength, speed, jumping ability, endurance, etc. Not "hitting a baseball" or "shooting a 3 pointer". Those are skill attributes, not athletic attributes.

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

Define a "skill attribute."

• Athleticism is the quality of having the strength (as well as other physical qualities) and energy that makes a great athlete.

• Skill is the ability to do something well; expertise.

For example due to the enhancement of a basketball player’s physical qualities an increase in their vertical jump abilities will likely occur (athleticism). However, what did the increase in vertical jumping ability do to enhance the basketball athlete’s jump shooting accuracy (skill)? The answer is nothing. The basketball player’s jump shooting accuracy will improve by practicing the “skill” of jump shooting. The athlete’s athleticism is demonstrated by their vertical jump abilities and their skill levels are exhibited by their jump shooting accuracy.

We might need an Obtuse Leash meme soon. Since I didn't think we needed to clarify skill vs athleticism, I don't really feel like going in depth on it. lets just go with this for now.

http://www.strengthpowerspeed.com/sport ... ism-skill/

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

At this point you're simply talking about skill. Athleticism would have to apply to more than one specific sport. Strength, speed, jumping ability, endurance, etc. Not "hitting a baseball" or "shooting a 3 pointer". Those are skill attributes, not athletic attributes.

I gotta side with FF on this one. We all know what is meant when someone is called a "great athlete". Pretending otherwise is being obtuse. Mark Grace was a skilled hitter but even he would admit to being a middling athlete.

Well, in that case the greatest athletes are clearly going to be soccer and basketball players. Not fat football players that run 5 yards at a time and then rest for a minute.

NFL linemen are just "fat" and Shaq was just "big"