I don't think you can say anything has been thoroughly refuted. We still honestly just don't know what causes it or if it is something that needs to be corrected or simply accepted.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't think anyone is saying it's "unacceptable", but if we are at the point that we are "gender fluid" then I don't see how we can condemn this lady for being racially fluid.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Even though the concept of race is flawed it is defined purely by genetics. Gender is not defined purely by genetics.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm not saying the theory itself has been refuted, but the research that says to confirm it. The studies looking at the brain structure in MtF trans people completely failed to account for the fact that all participants had undergone full courses of HRT, which has been shown to change brain structure, the specific structure being examined, in the exact way it was observed to be different in the trans participants.

http://www.annelawrence.com/brain-sex_critique.html
(this particular scientist goes off the rails towards the end, but her debunking of the science confirming the brain sex theory is spot on)

As a black man on a message board, this shit offends me.

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Sex isn't dirty, sex isn't a crime. It's a loving act between two or more consenting adults.

-Hank Kingsley

I haven't been following along, but this statement makes no sense.

Your genetics make you white, but you can act Hispanic. You can dye your hair and tan yourself to look more of the part.

Your genetics make you male, but you can act like a female. You can dye your hair and take hormones to look more the part.

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Disclaimer for those that need one: This post draws no conclusion nor does it make any judgement. It matters not whether someone is gay, transgender or trans anything else. It further makes no difference what I or anyone else thinks or believes.

Now with that said, there is an important angle to this entire matter as it pertains to society from a political perspective. Regardless on where in the LBGT spectrum your concern lies it is important from a certain standpoint to be seen as "born that way" rather than choosing or feeling to be that way. If someone is born a certain way or biologically determined to be some way then along with that comes inalienable rights so to speak. If someone is choosing or feeling something then they can possibly be treated differently legally and socially.

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Elections have consequences.

I can act like a bird too. It doesn't mean I'm a bird. Race is defined by genetics. You are born a certain race and you always will be.

Your sex will always be male. Your gender is not necessarily XX or XY though most of the time it does work that way.

There are societies that have more than two genders. There are certain genetic conditions that would make genetic classification of gender difficult. Genders have many societal factors the define the role in which you are in.

I think the big problem is that many people think gender = sex. It does not.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What are you talking about?

What inalienable rights are we concerned about here?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

The easiest parallel is something that is already settled save for some religious hold outs. People are born homosexual. Whether inalienable was the right word to use politically and legally they have all the same rights as everyone else (or should have). Further, and I am not sure how this works exactly, they have a status that affords them protection i.e. non-discrimination laws.

For some other concern (pick one) if it is determined that you were not born that way but choose to be that way there is a less rock solid base to try to gain political or legal standing.

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Elections have consequences.

This is where I am confused. If gay people are "choosing" to be gay what rights should be taken away?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Those disorders are so infrequent it would be foolish to toss aside the binary sex model. Perhaps 2% of the human population cannot be classified as a binary sex. We don't need a whole new construct forced on the 98% for which it works.

You are really being a goof. I am saying gays do not choose. I am saying other concerns (pick any) would have advantages similar to gays being defined in the born that way class rather than the choose to be something class.

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Elections have consequences.

I noticed you didn't use the term gender and instead used the term sex. Are you aware that sex is not the same thing as gender?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm saying that "gender = sex" would be accurate for 98% of the population.

You are being vague here so I am looking for a solid example that explains what you are saying. I understand you are playing devil's advocate but I'm trying to get a handle on what you are saying.

You mentioned homosexuality so I used that as an example. You can use any group you want to actually explain it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You're born male and will always be male. But you can dress, act, and identify as a female. Your acceptance into society is currently controversial.

You're born human and you'll always be a human. But you can dress, act, and identify as a bird (using your example; remove flying from the equation). Your acceptance into society would certainly be controversial (but maybe only until other bird-ians come out of the nest).

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race is social, not genetic

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

You are still wrong. I can post definition after definition of gender that includes non-genetic factors.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/some-scientific-journals-are-still-confusing-sex-and-gender-180949424/

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It seems as if you just refuse to even consider that you are referring to sex and not gender here.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You are kind of right. It is a social definition of your genetic makeup. The only factor is your genetics which then manifest themselves physically.

If you saw me walking down the street wearing a dress, makeup and a wig you would think I was living life as a woman even if you thought I was a man. Gender = female, sex = male. There is nothing that would do the same to change my race in your eyes.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Rick nothing is vague. Being homosexual is not a choice. It is accepted they are born that way. Therefore, they are a protected class. The same for this is true for a minority race. Now follow me closely. If it is debatable whether being another cause, like say a cross dresser to make it simpler for everyone, is a choice or genetic then is not clear they are a protected class. By that I very clearly am stating then without such protection bakers, wing nuts and politicians can deny special accommodation.

So regardless where else this thread goes in the discussion of transgender and genetic versus choice it is a big deal for those reasons. Again, for the sake of this post I am not taking a side. From the transgender side they wish to be viewed as born that way and there is an advantage to that. From the choice side some but not all also gain an advantage to be able to deny transgender in some way.

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Elections have consequences.

Says who?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Crossdresser is good too. What rights should they not have?

I understand you are not taking a side but you are trying to make a point and I simply want to know what it is. It seems like you are saying that if it is a choice that they should be able to have some rights taken from them. Personally, if someone chooses to or is born with it they should be treated the same way.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Ha. Beat me to it. Talcum X.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

I'm aware of what I'm referring to. I see no difference between our scenarios.

You're claiming gender is a state of mind, separate from genetics. Being a bird can be just as much of a state of mind, separate from genetics.

I though the correlation was pretty clear.

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Im out. Time to commute.

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Elections have consequences.

There are actually people who identify- or claim to identify- as "otherkin".

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Ecclesiastes 5:8