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 Post subject: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:52 am 
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http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2017 ... 170419974/

I think she makes several reasonable points about how we are teaching kids that if someone doesn't agree with you, it's because they hate you. I also can't imagine it being a good idea to let an adolescent decide they want to undergo hormone therapy. I haven't researched what she mentioned about the DSM-V and gender dysmorhpia...I don't know if any of that is true. My shoutout is mainly for pointing out that disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you hate them which seems to be a popular notion these days.

I don't have kids, and since I'm not Fred Huebner I don't spend much time hanging around them, but I have a hard time believing that every one of them is OK with sharing a bathroom or locker room with someone of a different gender. Especially when it comes to girls sharing those facilities with boys.

I do think she overuses the term "fragile children" to describe kids who are uneasy (or perhaps a bit queasy) for whatever reason about sharing facilities.

DailyHerald wrote:
Editor’s note: Vicki Wilson is a mother of two from Palatine and spokeswoman for Parents for Privacy, a group that advocates for an objective policy solution that respects privacy for all children in our area schools.

I came across a flier recently -- from a partisan group soliciting votes for last week's school board election -- that states: "Hate has no place in education."

Words matter. "Hate" is a word I've cautioned my children against using lightly. It's a word that does damage that is difficult or impossible to undo. Yet I'm seeing the word more and more frequently, and I'm extremely concerned with how that is impacting the children of our community.

Those distributing these types of fliers are clearly trying to impugn those of us who have stood up for privacy for all children. But don't they realize they're hurting the very children they claim to be helping?

When adults in our community tell children that other adults hate them -- an outrageous, heartbreaking lie -- don't they realize the damage this does to the child? I realize they are upset, but how can that justify telling devastating lies that hurt their own children?

Why not tell the truth instead: that sometimes adults disagree on policy issues, that one person's requests must be weighed against the needs of others, but that doesn't mean people who disagree don't care about you and your struggle. Wouldn't teaching children these truths be better -- not only because they are true, but because truth will do so much less damage than the lies?

What happens in our schools matters to everyone in our community, whether you have a child currently attending or not. If the next generation is being taught that "disagreement equals hate," where will that leave us? Unable to discuss or debate anything. We're already so close to that in our culture, and now kids are being taught it's the norm. Doesn't that scare you? To live peacefully with each other in our diverse society requires that we respect each other's differences and work toward solutions that keep everyone safe -- including emotionally safe.

Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. If that were happening in our schools, we could call it a day. But it's not. We have folks who believe one child's discomfort in a locker room due to gender identity is understandable and reasonable but don't believe that another child's discomfort in a locker room due to biological sex is understandable and reasonable. And they think it's reasonable to discount the feelings of fragile children who are fighting different battles.

The "empathy" they speak of is a one-way street, so it is not empathy at all. We have true empathy for kids struggling with gender identity but there is no compassion from their side for fragile children fighting other battles, such as a past that included sexual abuse. They won't even acknowledge there is any possible harm whatsoever to other fragile children.

Among the most fragile are those who've suffered sexual abuse. Statistics show one in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18, and much of this abuse has taken place in bathrooms and locker rooms.

These who have suffered such horrible abuse are particularly sensitive about being in proximity to children of the opposite sex in vulnerable environments. Even with no threat of physical harm, emotional harm comes in the form of flashbacks, PTSD and psychological distress.

Children who feel caught between two locker rooms need to be protected, as do others who request additional privacy for any reason. They need a safe place where their needs are respected. What child wouldn't prefer a private space at school like they have at home? That is extra protection, not less.

Retaining sex-specific areas while providing a third option is our stance and protects all children equally. To live in society, we must be able to compromise. One side cannot demand my way or else you will pay dearly. That's not fair to the kids of our community. Our stance is the compromise. Demanding no sex-specific areas or demanding no third options are the extreme positions.

Those of us defending the privacy of all children did not go looking for this battle. The ACLU came to town in 2015, exerted its power and influence through two federal agencies, and forced its will upon our unsuspecting community -- with a stunning threat to take away $6 million in funds designated for low-income and special education students. Who could support threatening to take away funding from children with special needs? Why would any candidate accept support from those who did just that? Our district superintendent even went on national TV to defend holding the line on the locker rooms. Even he knew it was unreasonable.

Multiple solutions and accommodations were offered and rejected. Compassion and compromise meant nothing. With vulnerable children in their line of fire, ACLU attorneys would stop at nothing. Vulnerable girls were being ignored by school administrators. Officials were picking favorites rather than protecting everyone equally. And we realized: something was very wrong in our schools.

The ACLU and others say this is all new … times have changed … "you don't want to be on the wrong side of history." But this is not new. There have always been children who struggle with gender identity. What is new is how adults are reacting.

I've personally heard from people who grew up wanting to be the opposite sex for years, but found those feelings eventually went away as they reached adulthood. They say they're grateful they didn't grow up today, when they likely would have been prescribed hormones and encouraged to transition. They cannot imagine how miserable they'd be if they had succumbed to those pressures.

They're not alone. According to the DSM-V, a significant percentage of gender dysphoric boys and gender dysphoric girls eventually accept their biological sex after naturally passing through puberty.

This social experiment is only 10 years old … and we're already seeing the fallout. And there are consequences we won't know for years. Children who use puberty blockers will require cross-sex hormones in late adolescence -- a combination that has health risks, even including sterility according to several medical associations, while others in the medical field dispute the sterility claim. Time will tell.

What compassionate person would condemn children whose brains are still forming to this fate, knowing that -- after puberty -- significant numbers will accept reality and achieve a state of mental and physical health?

I've heard from some of these people, too -- who did transition and now are suicidal, knowing they cannot repair the damage to their bodies.

And yet our school went so far as to hire a gender consultant to teach our teachers, parents and students that gender is fluid and the choices nearly infinite. "You may feel one gender one week, another in three weeks." Someone asked how many genders there are. We were told, with a straight face, "up to 900."

This issue isn't about children being born male but feeling female (and vice versa). This is about the 900 gender theory/social experiment. Parents for Privacy approached District 211 administrators before these education sessions, asking for a balanced viewpoint approach. We were quickly told no. Our tax dollars are paying for highly biased information, with dangerous implications for children, to be presented as fact -- with no opposing viewpoint allowed. This violates D211's own policy, yet when this is brought to their attention, they dismiss it.

Requiring a balanced approach, protecting privacy for all, eliminating hateful language and being truthful with children … these things are critical for them now and into the future. The emotional safety, dignity and well-being of every child matters.


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:04 am 
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154 comments so far...I keep looking for BRick to argue with them...

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:11 am 
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Puberty blockers? Really. Oh man, now I know why people get to 60 years and think the entire world is going to hell or pine for the good old days. I try to be open minded, but doctors are really prescribing puberty blockers to kids?

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:15 am 
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People be beefin' in the comments via Facebook:

Image

1. The Southern Poverty Law Center would label the SPLC a hate group.

2. This is more a question for Psycory, but don't we "pathologize" things like depression, schizophrenia, sociopathy, etc., precisely because they are abnormal and put undue burden on a human being? Isn't that how we study (and treat) things like that, by treating them as abnormal? People are all for ending stigmatization of mental health disorders...until they fear they'll be the ones stigmatized, then those who wish to seek ways to help alleviate issues are "pathologizing bigots".


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:18 am 
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Joanie Rae Wimmer also defends people like this:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2013 ... 712119830/

Quote:
Stephen Bona, 50, of Chicago was charged March 22, hours after Republican state Rep. Jeanne Ives reported getting a threatening voice mail at her district office.

"Your Tea Party brethren Sarah Palin put up a map that included the names, locations, and faces of Democratic candidates and put them in the cross hairs of a gun," the caller said on the voice mail, a recording of which Ives provided to the Daily Herald at that time.

The caller went on to say "perhaps we should do the same for you. We know where you live. There's no longer a ban on assault weapons. Think about that before you speak next time, (expletive)."

Bona is accused of leaving the message following Ives' February appearance on a Catholic Conference of Illinois radio show. There, she said same-sex marriages are "disordered" and couples are trying to "weasel their way into acceptability."

Bona's attorney, Joanie Rae Wimmer argued during a Wednesday hearing before DuPage Judge Blanche Hill Fawell that the case should be dismissed because Bona did not specifically threaten Ives.

"The law is pretty clear that you only get outside the realm of constitutionally protected speech if you mean to convey an intent on your part to do harm to someone else," Wimmer said. "I don't believe that he did that. There are a number of cases where a speaker suggests to the listener that violence could befall them if they continue their course of action."


Equality!


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:31 am 
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So, let me get this straight.

Some children have been abused.
They almost certainly would have been abused by an adult.
That adult almost certainly was not transgender.
That adult may very well have been the same gender.
This hypothetical child has no problem going into bathrooms normally even if the attack happened in one.
This hypothetical child would have no problem being in the same hallways or the same classroom or the same club as this other student.

However, the fact that a classmate who happens to be unsure about their gender being in the same bathroom, which has almost certainly has private stalls with locked doors, is too much for them to deal with.

Solid theory.

The answer here is actually quite simple. Create a private bathroom that only one person can use at a time and any person who is concerned that a person who is "different" from them will come in can use that bathroom exclusively. It can be a safe space for any concerned student. In fact, this hypothetical student who was attacked in a bathroom should have this option regardless as it provides much more protection.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:34 am 
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This is just all weird...my cousin's kids are friends with the tranny kid that started the whole issue...I'm pretty sure he/she graduated back in May. The Parents for Privacy people have more issue with this than their kids do. The kids don't really seem to give a shit...other than the usual religious loons, the ones who are too afraid to go against their parents, and the ones the parent's think agree with them but secretly don't.

I have 2 girls myself...when they get to the ages in question, I don't want them changing in a locker room with boys, but I also know there isn't a reasonable way to confirm that there are no boys in the girls locker room...It's a definite violation of privacy for someone to be checking to make sure the right plumbing is there. And I know damn well that if someone tried to make sure my girls were girls before they went into a girls locker room, that someone would have my foot so far up their ass, I'd be kicking their tonsils.

What I've observed from reading both the editorial and comments, Parents for Privacy doesn't seem nearly as interested in protecting locker/bathroom privacy as they are in claiming that trannies are mentally ill.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:38 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
What I've observed from reading both the editorial and comments, Parents for Privacy doesn't seem nearly as interested in protecting locker/bathroom privacy as they are in claiming that trannies are mentally ill.
This is pretty much it. That is why it is almost always mentioned about abuse for no real reason but to shame those who are different.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:39 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The answer here is actually quite simple. Create a private bathroom that only one person can use at a time and any person who is concerned that a person who is "different" from them will come in can use that bathroom exclusively. It can be a safe space for any concerned student. In fact, this hypothetical student who was attacked in a bathroom should have this option regardless as it provides much more protection.


In theory, you are correct.

In practice, the "private bathroom" was the start of this whole shit storm. The trans kid's parents were upset that their kid who was transitioning from boy to girl was required to use a private bathroom, and that he/she was being persecuted. There were even statements that said private bathroom was available to anyone that wanted to use it. Once the parents got involved, the shit really hit the fan.

I've met the kid at the center of this whole thing. He was with my cousin's kids at a graduation party I was at. He was a weird little shit when he was a boy. I don't even want to know, now.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:40 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The answer here is actually quite simple. Create a private bathroom that only one person can use at a time and any person who is concerned that a person who is "different" from them will come in can use that bathroom exclusively. It can be a safe space for any concerned student. In fact, this hypothetical student who was attacked in a bathroom should have this option regardless as it provides much more protection.


In theory, you are correct.

In practice, the "private bathroom" was the start of this whole shit storm. The trans kid's parents were upset that their kid who was transitioning from boy to girl was required to use a private bathroom, and that he/she was being persecuted. There were even statements that said private bathroom was available to anyone that wanted to use it. Once the parents got involved, the shit really hit the fan.

I've met the kid at the center of this whole thing. He was with my cousin's kids at a graduation party I was at. He was a weird little shit when he was a boy. I don't even want to know, now.
The "private bathroom" wouldn't be for the transgender kid. It would be for the abused kids who are afraid of bathrooms with transgender kids in it. The transgender kid would be free to use the desired bathroom.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:41 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The answer here is actually quite simple. Create a private bathroom that only one person can use at a time and any person who is concerned that a person who is "different" from them will come in can use that bathroom exclusively. It can be a safe space for any concerned student. In fact, this hypothetical student who was attacked in a bathroom should have this option regardless as it provides much more protection.


In theory, you are correct.

In practice, the "private bathroom" was the start of this whole shit storm. The trans kid's parents were upset that their kid who was transitioning from boy to girl was required to use a private bathroom, and that he/she was being persecuted. There were even statements that said private bathroom was available to anyone that wanted to use it. Once the parents got involved, the shit really hit the fan.

I've met the kid at the center of this whole thing. He was with my cousin's kids at a graduation party I was at. He was a weird little shit when he was a boy. I don't even want to know, now.
The "private bathroom" wouldn't be for the transgender kid. It would be for the abused kids who are afraid of bathrooms with transgender kids in it. The transgender kid would be free to use the desired bathroom.


Gotcha

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:45 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The answer here is actually quite simple. Create a private bathroom that only one person can use at a time and any person who is concerned that a person who is "different" from them will come in can use that bathroom exclusively. It can be a safe space for any concerned student. In fact, this hypothetical student who was attacked in a bathroom should have this option regardless as it provides much more protection.


A few problems with that, though.

1. How many? Because the second you put a number to that question, you will have more kids with gender identity issues than you have bathroom stalls. You can start writing the "separate [clap] is [clap] not [clap] equal!" tweets from Julie DiCaro-types right now. The only answer, then, is "a lot" or even "all", which leads into point #2:

2. How much? Building codes, especially for schools, require a litany of things for something to be considered an up-to-code "bathroom" for public use. The way we currently make bathrooms not cost prohibitive to fit 2400+ kids in a high school, is we make two big rooms side-by-side, and instead of having to wall off enough square footage for each single-use room to fit the toilet, plumbing, sink, vanity, etc., we can make the sink/vanity areas common-use, and the toilets individual use, with added floor space savings when you can halve the number of toilets in favor of urinals. A single-use bathroom for "all" or "MANY" would cost a TON, on top of eating up exponentially more real estate per-user than the current setup. You'd need a gymnasium's worth of single-use bathrooms for one gym class.


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:47 am 
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Your love, lifting me higher
Than I've ever been lifted before
So keep it it up
Quench my desire
And I'll be at your side, forever more

You know your love (your love keeps lifting me)
Keep on lifting (love keeps lifting me)
Higher (lifting me)
Higher and higher (higher)
I said your love (your love keeps lifting me)
Keep on (love keeps lifting me)
Lifting me (lifting me)
Higher and higher (higher)
Now listen

Now once, I was down hearted
Disappointment, was my closest friend
But then you, came and it soon departed
And you know he never
Showed his face again

That's why your love (your love keeps lifting me)
Keep on lifting (love keeps lifting me)
Higher (lifting me)
Higher and higher (higher)
I said your love (your love keeps lifting me)
Keep on (love keeps lifting me)
Lifting me (lifting me)
Higher and higher (higher)

I'm so glad, I've finally found you
Yes that one, in a million girls
And I whip, my loving arms around you
I can stand up, and face the world

Let me tell ya, your love (your love keeps lifting me)
Keep on lifting (love keeps lifting me)
Higher (lifting me)
Higher and higher (higher)
I said your love (your love keeps lifting me)
Keep on (love keeps lifting me)
Lifting me (lifting me)
Higher and higher (higher)

Now sock it to me
Hold me, ... the other woman
Keep my love going
Higher and higher
I said keep on lifting
Lift me up mama
Keep on lifting me
Higher and higher


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:49 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The answer here is actually quite simple. Create a private bathroom that only one person can use at a time and any person who is concerned that a person who is "different" from them will come in can use that bathroom exclusively. It can be a safe space for any concerned student. In fact, this hypothetical student who was attacked in a bathroom should have this option regardless as it provides much more protection.


A few problems with that, though.

1. How many? Because the second you put a number to that question, you will have more kids with gender identity issues than you have bathroom stalls. You can start writing the "separate [clap] is [clap] not [clap] equal!" tweets from Julie DiCaro-types right now. The only answer, then, is "a lot" or even "all", which leads into point #2:

2. How much? Building codes, especially for schools, require a litany of things for something to be considered an up-to-code "bathroom" for public use. The way we currently make bathrooms not cost prohibitive to fit 2400+ kids in a high school, is we make two big rooms side-by-side, and instead of having to wall off enough square footage for each single-use room to fit the toilet, plumbing, sink, vanity, etc., we can make the sink/vanity areas common-use, and the toilets individual use, with added floor space savings when you can halve the number of toilets in favor of urinals. A single-use bathroom for "all" or "MANY" would cost a TON, on top of eating up exponentially more real estate per-user than the current setup. You'd need a gymnasium's worth of single-use bathrooms for one gym class.
Those "private bathrooms" are only for those who have concerns about the other people in there who want to only be alone while using the bathroom. If they want to mitigate their fears and trauma they can find the individual bathroom.

There are kids that have been abused and yet we want them to use a bathroom with other people in it? That just isn't right. Those kids deserve a chance to go to a bathroom that is not shared and it should be granted to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:51 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
Parents for Privacy doesn't seem nearly as interested in protecting locker/bathroom privacy as they are in claiming that trannies are mentally ill.


Gender dysphoria does walk and talk and smell like a psychological disorder, though, doesn't it? If I told you that while I have male parts, I feel as though I should have a pair of Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofans, would you build me a runway and surgically attach wings to my body or send me to talk to a mental health professional?


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:58 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
Parents for Privacy doesn't seem nearly as interested in protecting locker/bathroom privacy as they are in claiming that trannies are mentally ill.


Gender dysphoria does walk and talk and smell like a psychological disorder, though, doesn't it? If I told you that while I have male parts, I feel as though I should have a pair of Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofans, would you build me a runway and surgically attach wings to my body or send me to talk to a mental health professional?


I probably wouldn't send you to a mental health professional for that. I'd just call you a dumbass.

The idea that they are treating gender dysphoria as a mental illness is that these are the same people that treat homosexuality as a mental illness. I'm not going to pretend to walk in the shoes of either a homosexual or someone who thinks he should be a different gender, but honestly, it's completely reasonable to me that in a world where someone is wired to like the same sex as them, it's not unreasonable for someone to think they should have actually been born the opposite gender. I mean, human DNA has evolved in so many ways, it doesn't seem unreasonable to see this as another evolution in DNA. But I'm not a geneticist, I sell conveyor chain.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:09 am 
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It's also not really our job to shame someone into mental illness treatment unless they are causing harm to others and then it just becomes a criminal issue. So that isn't relevant either.

If someone wanted a nose job or breast implants or a tattoo we aren't calling them mentally ill.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:16 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
Parents for Privacy doesn't seem nearly as interested in protecting locker/bathroom privacy as they are in claiming that trannies are mentally ill.


Gender dysphoria does walk and talk and smell like a psychological disorder, though, doesn't it? If I told you that while I have male parts, I feel as though I should have a pair of Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofans, would you build me a runway and surgically attach wings to my body or send me to talk to a mental health professional?


I probably wouldn't send you to a mental health professional for that. I'd just call you a dumbass.

The idea that they are treating gender dysphoria as a mental illness is that these are the same people that treat homosexuality as a mental illness. I'm not going to pretend to walk in the shoes of either a homosexual or someone who thinks he should be a different gender, but honestly, it's completely reasonable to me that in a world where someone is wired to like the same sex as them, it's not unreasonable for someone to think they should have actually been born the opposite gender. I mean, human DNA has evolved in so many ways, it doesn't seem unreasonable to see this as another evolution in DNA. But I'm not a geneticist, I sell conveyor chain.


The science "confirming" gender dysphoria as a biological condition (the "brain-sex theory") has been debunked as biased quackery in favor of the overarching narrative. Sampling bias was glossed over, as was one hell of a case of confirmation bias. And, to my knowledge, there are documented instances of adolescents who previously displayed gender dysphoria being "cured" of those feelings without hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery: http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(08)60142-2/abstract?cc=y=

I don't know what causes gender dysphoria, and it may very well be some peculiar combination of biology and psyche, I think we've too quickly eschewed a psychological explanation in favor of something MANY view to be less stigmatizing. I don't disavow the parallels with our societal struggles to understand and accept homosexuality, and my only defense to that is to say that I feel as though while the two appear very similar, they are only tangentially so, as the entire concept of gender identity deals with our very consciousness, not just our sexual orientation.


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:17 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joanie Rae Wimmer also defends people like this:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2013 ... 712119830/

Quote:
Stephen Bona, 50, of Chicago was charged March 22, hours after Republican state Rep. Jeanne Ives reported getting a threatening voice mail at her district office.

"Your Tea Party brethren Sarah Palin put up a map that included the names, locations, and faces of Democratic candidates and put them in the cross hairs of a gun," the caller said on the voice mail, a recording of which Ives provided to the Daily Herald at that time.

The caller went on to say "perhaps we should do the same for you. We know where you live. There's no longer a ban on assault weapons. Think about that before you speak next time, (expletive)."

Bona is accused of leaving the message following Ives' February appearance on a Catholic Conference of Illinois radio show. There, she said same-sex marriages are "disordered" and couples are trying to "weasel their way into acceptability."

Bona's attorney, Joanie Rae Wimmer argued during a Wednesday hearing before DuPage Judge Blanche Hill Fawell that the case should be dismissed because Bona did not specifically threaten Ives.

"The law is pretty clear that you only get outside the realm of constitutionally protected speech if you mean to convey an intent on your part to do harm to someone else," Wimmer said. "I don't believe that he did that. There are a number of cases where a speaker suggests to the listener that violence could befall them if they continue their course of action."


Equality!


Hard to figure out what Bona's beef is about

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:22 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's also not really our job to shame someone into mental illness treatment unless they are causing harm to others and then it just becomes a criminal issue. So that isn't relevant either.


I think it can become the public's concern if people want an entirely new protected class of citizen born from bad science. I think that's relevant, maybe you don't.

Quote:
If someone wanted a nose job or breast implants or a tattoo we aren't calling them mentally ill.


Come on, are you going to make me post pictures of people who clearly have mental disorders that cause fixations on plastic surgery and body ink?

That's the entire concept of a "disorder": when your fixation on or fetishization of something becomes a burden to you carrying out the rest of your life.


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:27 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
And, to my knowledge, there are documented instances of adolescents who previously displayed gender dysphoria being "cured" of those feelings without hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery: http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(08)60142-2/abstract?cc=y=


Without looking, I'm sure there are "documented" instances of adolescents who displayed homosexual tendencies being "cured" of those without them just coming out of the closet.

I feel like we are too quick to jump to "mental illness" when it's something so grey, and something we don't understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:29 am 
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I would like to see the list of 900 gender statuses.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:30 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
And, to my knowledge, there are documented instances of adolescents who previously displayed gender dysphoria being "cured" of those feelings without hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery: http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(08)60142-2/abstract?cc=y=


Without looking, I'm sure there are "documented" instances of adolescents who displayed homosexual tendencies being "cured" of those without them just coming out of the closet.

I feel like we are too quick to jump to "mental illness" when it's something so grey, and something we don't understand.


Quote:
Results
At follow-up, 30% of the 77 participants (19 boys and 4 girls) did not respond to our recruiting letter or were not traceable; 27% (12 boys and 9 girls) were still gender dysphoric (persistence group), and 43% (desistance group: 28 boys and 5 girls) were no longer gender dysphoric. Both boys and girls in the persistence group were more extremely cross-gendered in behavior and feelings and were more likely to fulfill gender identity disorder (GID) criteria in childhood than the children in the other two groups. At follow-up, nearly all male and female participants in the persistence group reported having a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation. In the desistance group, all of the girls and half of the boys reported having a heterosexual orientation. The other half of the boys in the desistance group had a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation.

Conclusions
Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. Children with persistent GID are characterized by more extreme gender dysphoria in childhood than children with desisting gender dysphoria. With regard to sexual orientation, the most likely outcome of childhood GID is homosexuality or bisexuality. J. Am. Acad. Child and Adolesc. Psychiatry, 2008;47(12):1413–1423.


But I agree, we should not shy away from studying something we don't completely understand from new or even unusual angles. However, there is a definite problem when you can have the majority of respondents in a longitudinal study report losing their feelings of gender dysphoria, and still have people label those that wish to study gender dysphoria and the causes of transsexualism through the prism of psychological disorders, as bigoted quacks.


Last edited by Juice's Lecture Notes on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:30 am 
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pittmike wrote:
I would like to see the list of 900 gender statuses.


It's actually over 9000.


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:33 am 
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I draw the line at having to relearn pronoun use.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:41 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I think it can become the public's concern if people want an entirely new protected class of citizen born from bad science. I think that's relevant, maybe you don't.
Bad science? The concept of fluidity in gender is not bad science. The concept that gender roles make major shifts is not bad science.

You are just throwing out random studies to try and muddy the waters here.

I'll ask you a simple question. Why don't you wear a dress every day?

Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Come on, are you going to make me post pictures of people who clearly have mental disorders that cause fixations on plastic surgery and body ink?
Yeah, but we allow for "normal" people who have tattoos and plastic surgery. You aren't letting there be a normal here.

Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
That's the entire concept of a "disorder": when your fixation on or fetishization of something becomes a burden to you carrying out the rest of your life.
We all have disorders then.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:47 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
And, to my knowledge, there are documented instances of adolescents who previously displayed gender dysphoria being "cured" of those feelings without hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery: http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(08)60142-2/abstract?cc=y=


Without looking, I'm sure there are "documented" instances of adolescents who displayed homosexual tendencies being "cured" of those without them just coming out of the closet.

I feel like we are too quick to jump to "mental illness" when it's something so grey, and something we don't understand.


Quote:
Results
At follow-up, 30% of the 77 participants (19 boys and 4 girls) did not respond to our recruiting letter or were not traceable; 27% (12 boys and 9 girls) were still gender dysphoric (persistence group), and 43% (desistance group: 28 boys and 5 girls) were no longer gender dysphoric. Both boys and girls in the persistence group were more extremely cross-gendered in behavior and feelings and were more likely to fulfill gender identity disorder (GID) criteria in childhood than the children in the other two groups. At follow-up, nearly all male and female participants in the persistence group reported having a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation. In the desistance group, all of the girls and half of the boys reported having a heterosexual orientation. The other half of the boys in the desistance group had a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation.

Conclusions
Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. Children with persistent GID are characterized by more extreme gender dysphoria in childhood than children with desisting gender dysphoria. With regard to sexual orientation, the most likely outcome of childhood GID is homosexuality or bisexuality. J. Am. Acad. Child and Adolesc. Psychiatry, 2008;47(12):1413–1423.


But I agree, we should not shy away from studying something we don't completely understand from new or even unusual angles. However, there is a definite problem when you can have the majority of respondents in a longitudinal study report losing their feelings of gender dysphoria, and still have people label those that wish to study gender dysphoria and the causes of transsexualism through the prism of psychological disorders, as bigoted quacks.


I couldn't get the article to open...kept coming up as page not found, but what was the control group involved? What age range? Pre-puberty? I could see the results working out this way if you start with a bunch of 8 years olds, then see how they feel after puberty. That makes sense to me.

I think the idea of allowing a transition during the teenage years, during development is dangerously negligent on the side of the parents. I also don't necessarily think that hormone treatments are the way to go when a 9 year old boy thinks he should be a girl. Puberty is kicking in, and hormones are going to do their thing. Forcing hormones in is akin to a conservative Christian sending their kid to Gay Camp.

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:47 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Bad science?


Yes. Ignoring inherent sample size and sample bias issues to declare transsexualism a function of brain structure is bad science.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Yeah, but we allow for "normal" people who have tattoos and plastic surgery. You aren't letting there be a normal here.


Of course I am, you just want to define "normal" as including "wanting to create facsimiles of [opposite sex] organs with the remains of your current sex organs while artificially altering your hormone levels", which I think is a bit unreasonable.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
We all have disorders then.


A lot more of us do than we would like to admit, yes, as evidenced by this discussion. Kinda goes to show how deeply stigmatized mental health issues are, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:49 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Of course I am, you just want to define "normal" as including "wanting to create facsimiles of [opposite sex] organs with the remains of your current sex organs while artificially altering your hormone levels", which I think is a bit unreasonable.
Fair enough. Take that out of the equation.

Let's say someone just wants to dress as a woman, wear makeup, carry a purse, and use the women's bathroom. Is that acceptable and not mental illness?

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 Post subject: Re: Vicki Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:50 am 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
And, to my knowledge, there are documented instances of adolescents who previously displayed gender dysphoria being "cured" of those feelings without hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery: http://jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(08)60142-2/abstract?cc=y=


Without looking, I'm sure there are "documented" instances of adolescents who displayed homosexual tendencies being "cured" of those without them just coming out of the closet.

I feel like we are too quick to jump to "mental illness" when it's something so grey, and something we don't understand.


Quote:
Results
At follow-up, 30% of the 77 participants (19 boys and 4 girls) did not respond to our recruiting letter or were not traceable; 27% (12 boys and 9 girls) were still gender dysphoric (persistence group), and 43% (desistance group: 28 boys and 5 girls) were no longer gender dysphoric. Both boys and girls in the persistence group were more extremely cross-gendered in behavior and feelings and were more likely to fulfill gender identity disorder (GID) criteria in childhood than the children in the other two groups. At follow-up, nearly all male and female participants in the persistence group reported having a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation. In the desistance group, all of the girls and half of the boys reported having a heterosexual orientation. The other half of the boys in the desistance group had a homosexual or bisexual sexual orientation.

Conclusions
Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. Children with persistent GID are characterized by more extreme gender dysphoria in childhood than children with desisting gender dysphoria. With regard to sexual orientation, the most likely outcome of childhood GID is homosexuality or bisexuality. J. Am. Acad. Child and Adolesc. Psychiatry, 2008;47(12):1413–1423.


But I agree, we should not shy away from studying something we don't completely understand from new or even unusual angles. However, there is a definite problem when you can have the majority of respondents in a longitudinal study report losing their feelings of gender dysphoria, and still have people label those that wish to study gender dysphoria and the causes of transsexualism through the prism of psychological disorders, as bigoted quacks.


I couldn't get the article to open...kept coming up as page not found, but what was the control group involved? What age range? Pre-puberty? I could see the results working out this way if you start with a bunch of 8 years olds, then see how they feel after puberty. That makes sense to me.

I think the idea of allowing a transition during the teenage years, during development is dangerously negligent on the side of the parents. I also don't necessarily think that hormone treatments are the way to go when a 9 year old boy thinks he should be a girl. Puberty is kicking in, and hormones are going to do their thing. Forcing hormones in is akin to a conservative Christian sending their kid to Gay Camp.


Yeah, the mean age of the sample at the beginning was 8.4 years, mean age at the second observation was 18.9 years. It's the weird parenthesis they put in the URL, no idea why the auto link function truncates the URL there.


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