Omar Vizquel will probably be in that Ozzie category too

On the other side of the catcher coin you got Jorge Posada who was pretty good offensively and such a cornerstone piece of the great Yankee teams.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

No.

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

I think it's about 50/50, which means he will probably get in eventually. WAR does not account for framing, and Molina has played most of his career as the leader of playoff teams, the 2 rings will only help him, and by the time he is on the ballot, the voters will be mostly new-school SABR types. There may be a better way at that time to retro-actively understand the relative value of catcher defense. Rather than MVP votes, which are pretty infrequent for catchers as most only play about 130 games, a better question is, is he consistently been considered the best/in the discussion at his position over his career? IMO i'd say, yes

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Yes, who's a better catcher the past 15 years?

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Easily a Hall of Famer

He's not close to a Hall of Famer. Maybe we should let Bill Freehan and Jim Sundberg in too.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Those guys couldn't hit, they weren't the best catchers in their era...Yadi is, he's also got more cy youngs n rings...terrible analogy.

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Freehan was a better hitter than Molina. And are you really awarding Cy Youngs to a catcher??? Molina isn't a better offensive player than Pierzynski.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yeah, this is the baseball Hall of Fame, not football. You have to be at least a very good hitter to even merit consideration. There are guys with close to 500 home runs who aren't in.

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Jim Sundberg! Pride of Galesburg, IL!

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I can see elite defense being considered for the best shortstops and catchers, but like you're saying, there has to be a baseline of hitting. Molina is closer to Sundberg than he is to Piazza or Johnny Bench.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

There just aren't defensive catchers better than Sundberg.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Nineteen men who played primarily as catchers have been inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame:
Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Roger Bresnahan
Roy Campanella
Gary Carter
Mickey Cochrane
Bill Dickey
Buck Ewing
Rick Ferrell
Carlton Fisk
Josh Gibson
Gabby Hartnett
Ernie Lombardi
Biz Mackey
Mike Piazza
Iván Rodríguez
Louis Santop
Ray Schalk
Deacon White

Are you suggesting that Molina isn't at least the 20th best catcher n history? Some of the names on this list are frankly... sentimental choices at best, made at a time when baseball was not well understood statistically.

According to at least one measure, YM has been worth 222.5 runs saved in his career on pitch framing alone. By some measures, his pitch framng has been worth ~ 22 wins worth of runs in his career. Think about that for a bit.

But yeah, numbers shmumbers. How does one value non-tangible aspects of catcher defense? Respect of one's peers is one measure, I suppose.. how about intimidation of potential base thieves, and handling young pitchers (both of which are often cited on national, out-of-town broadcasts re: Molina) Who has been better than Molina over his career? maybe IRod (HOF), Posey (probable HOF) and Posada is on the ballot now (terrible defensive catcher, albeit a good hitter, championship pedigree).

I would find a tangible defense of your position; if you can muster one, compelling to read at the least.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Yeah, I'm suggesting that. If I just look at Cardinals catchers in my lifetime, he isn't better than Joe Torre (Maybe you don't consider him a catcher. Fine.). He's probably better than McCarver but not by a whole lot. He isn't better than Darrell Porter. He's not better than Ted Simmons. He's better than Tony Pena, but that's a better comp for him than the Hall of Famers.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

This is a really pompous take and it makes me think of the modern guy laughing at the old medicine show wagon while he orders miracle products from an 800 number on his TV.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I think you overvalue offense, just based on this and other posts I have read. It's not really the best way to value catchers. Pierzynski? 8 am is a little early on a Tuesday to be drinking. Torre is in the HOF, for his managing, not his catching. He was a pedestrian catcher at best. Simmons might have a legit argument to be in, but the fact that he isn't is hardly egregious. I'd exclude McCarver just for his idiotic thoughts as a broadcaster (catchers are baseball smart? not in this case). Porter was a drunk who's career flamed out too quickly. As with all Halls of Fame, endurance matters. And I don't recall Pena winning any Silver Slugger awards (voters take these frivolous awards seriously) and only 4 Gold Gloves (Yadier is at 8 and counting). You like winning teams? Fun fact: Pena's teams' winning percentage is .410 with him behind the plate. Additonally, he was a terrbble manager who once quit on his team in the season. Molina has been in the playoffs 9 times in his 12 year career.

Pompous? yeah maybe. But you probably shouldn't be incurring that terminology with some of your baseball takes.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Was Yogu a defensive stud?

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I'm not sure, but he was a leader of men and a quote machine. I've never heard anyone questioning his HOF credentials.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

No kidding, maybe baseball is "declining" because in tyool 2017 nobody watches anymore because they feel like all they have to do is look up some advanced stats and now they know everything about baseball. Watch baseball games? That's for dinosaurs that just don't get it.

This sounds like a take that only an idiot, or IMU; would find sound.
I watch about 500 games a year (MLB at bat app FTW), and the advanced stats only enhance my enjoyment of the game, as accountants and lawyers will tell you; some stats just flat-out lie, and are used just for arguments' sake. They do not directly influence what my eyes and ears tell me is happening on the field. The real problem is the internet. A few easily-looked up sites can give a fool "ammunition" to provoke unfounded arguments.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

I don't think offense can be overvalued. That's what the game is- batters trying to hit pitchers who are trying to shut down batters. As I said, I have no problem considering elite defense at shortstop and catcher as a Hall of Fame credential. And Molina most certainly is an elite defender. I just don't think his bat is good enough. I'd put him in a category with guys like Sundberg. Most people don't even know who Earl Battey is and I'd argue he was as good as Molina defensively and better with the bat. He's no Hall of Famer though.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I do not think he is a Hall of Famer, but I do think he is closer than you believe he is.

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Any HOF that has Mazeroski in it (for what? basically one HR?) has Molina in it in my world. Hell, let everyone in, even the 'roiders. In the end, it's a fucking museum, and has similar effect on real life as the Oscars.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

If that's how you feel, that's fine. Personally, I think that just makes the Hall of Fame kind of meaningless.

And maybe Mazeroski doesn't belong. In fact, in spite of the different positions (both important defensively) I would say he's a good comp for Molina- a defensive wizard with a bat that maybe isn't quite there. Of course, the home run and beating the Yankees matters. If Molina ever hits the second most famous homer in history I'll give him more consideration.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Maybe all the Cubs prospects really are future HOFers!

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the hardware is silly and often arbitrary, we've already been over that... and it's hard to know how much to attribute that to the catcher. Was 1985 Doc Gooden so good because he had Gary Carter back there? Probably not, but i'm sure it didn't hurt.

here's another thing I looked at... haven't gotten through 2016 box scores yet, however take this into consideration, since it seems like you esteem winning percentage so much for individual pitchers.

2010-2015 STL W-L
With Molina starting: 449-317 (.586)
Without: 94-96 (.495)

That’s a 70 game difference over less than 5 full seasons worth of games. So it seems his true "wins above replacement" value is not insignifigant.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

2016 Molina starting 80-63; total 529-380 (.582)
Not starting 6-13; total 100-109 (.478)

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

Great, you're not one of them, but since you're so defensive about it you understand there are many that fit that description.

Didn't they finally put Bill Mazeroski in after about 55 years?

Ozzie Smith played on a perfect carpet in St. Louis. Every bounce was true for 81 games.

Don Kessinger should be in before Ozzie.

Yadi is fantastic,heck of a defensive gem.

>>>>What about Randy Hundley,too?<<<<<<

I won't rest until every member of the '69 Cubs is a HOF'r.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

This type of stat could also lead to being skewed by him pitching to 1-4 in the rotation and letting the back up catcher handle the fifth starter. I'm sure David Ross put up a freaky good W/L record last year being the personal catcher to Jon Lester