So if you're old you can't have legit beef with someone?

All these anti-Krause grievances are meticulously detailed in Sam Smith's the Jordan Rules and other subsequent, insider stories of the first three peat teams. They're also repeated in news stories, so it's not fantastical to say that people hated Krause for legitimate reasons. He's not some poor schmuck whose corpulent appearance tragically made him an easy target for scorn and derision. I personally don't care that the team separated after 1998 - I thought they were too old anyway and it was probably the right time to start new, so I'm personally not blaming Krause for that and I doubt the majority of fans hate Krause for that reason. If they hate him for any reason, I think it's more likely that they've bought into, or have been influenced by, the Jordan/PJ narrative about Krause rather than anything else. And like I've said, whether or you agree with them or not, the Krause dislike is not arbitrary.

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This is the second time you've appealed to some self-perceived authority about yourself regarding knowledge of the Bulls in the early 1990s. Anytime you want to bring legitimate arguments then bring it. As of now you've got a bunch of non-sequiturs and bizarre, TMZ-ish tangents about Doug Collins sleeping with Reinsdorf's wife going for you.

Let me break this down for you:

1) Jackson "backdooring" Collins in order to become the HC is irrelevant. Jackson could have tortured kittens as a side-job during his off time and it wouldn't matter because it's not relevant to his accomplishments as the Bulls' coach.

2) Your rankings of "key" people involved in the Bulls' first three peat is baseless. For the third time, the actual players refute your sentiment by citing PJ's knack for managing the team both on and off the court as instrumental in them finally taking the next step after years of being on the cusp of greatness in the '80s. I'll take the sentiments of people who actually worked with and under Jackson over what some self-important random poster has to say about the fucking head coach not being instrumental to a three-peat team because he went around his predecessor's back to get the gig in the first place. You need to learn the proper ingredients of a cogent argument. The first tip is that not everything that comes to mind can be tossed into an argument, especially if what you want to toss in looks like, and is in fact, a flaming piece of shit.

3) You said an 11-time world champion head coach is a fraud as a coach. That alone is some clinically insane shit.

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May be time to stop it. The stuff that I speak about Jackson has played out through the years. Do you think it is an accident that he is now throwing Anthony under the bus?

This is sort of what he does. He did with Krause. Did it with Kobe also. Scottie 1.8 seconds. How do we know about it? Phil told us that is why. A lot of the drama that went on with the Bulls was promoted by him.

Yes he has 11 rings. He benefitted greatly by coaching the greatest player of all time. The other two guys were top 10 all time. He had coached very talented teams during his career.

It's not about me being an authority as much as me thinking you are a non authority. Most of the stuff that you provide is from post Bulls era news stories. I am and have been an avid Bulls fan since the early 80's. I remember this stuff as it happened. Was I in the room no but I am providing an opinion based on what happened at the time.

I rarely base anything on what players say because people have biases. I don't need former bulls players to validate Krause because I saw with my own eyes what he did. He was the orchestrator of the franchise. The doberman defense guy was a Krause hire and saw was the triple post guy.

Jackson never coached a team to a championship that wasn't predicted to win. He gets credit but if you think that he was the instrumental figure in the Bulls winning then you are delusional.

Also you are the person that brought championship rings. My very first reference regarding Jackson related to him being a snake that stole the head coach''s job. Nothing subsequent to that mattered much to me. That spoke to his character. Had nothing to do with winning. Winning isn't relative nor does it obscure that.

His snake like qualities are rearing their ugly head yet again. He is throwing people under the bus in an effort to deflect from the crappy job that he has done as G.M.

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will somebody tell me once before I die the truth about who and why doug collins was fired?

That is not true. THe Bulls were not predicted to win until after they got past the Pistons.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Yes they were. The Pistons were done at that point. Bulls still had to beat them but at worst they were pick em. They swept Detroit. Wasn't even a series. Going into the Bulls were the favorite but they still had to shoe they could beat them.

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Phil was great. He was great because tex winter made him great.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Old Tex was't going through a rebuild.

What are the "legitimate" greivances anyway?

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

No that's revisionist history. Bulls were still questioned when Phil took over if they would get over the hump. If MJ would suffer the same fate and Ernie Banks blah blah blah

As far as me self important that is your interpretation. I'm not important nor do I really ever make it a point to respond to stuff that you post either. You on the other hand have gone out of your way to make me important. You are up to 3 sigs and you have also started a thread about me. Your original point in this debate doesn't even relate to what I stated about Jackson. It's obvious that you don't have any real time info about the subject.

As far as player comments I never listen to that stuff. Do players ever provide honest opinions? I can also provide stuff where Jordan told Jackson that it was Dean Smith and not him that taught him the game.

I don't view Jackson as some sort of savant when it comes to basketball. He has taken ready made teams to championships.

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By the time that they beat Detroit Detroit was done. The Bulls took them to 7 year before and may have won if not for Scotties migraine. I was a Pistons fan and they weren't better in 91. Bulls just had to beat them


Not revisionist. I remember this stuff as it happened.

1990-91 NBA Season Summary | Basketball-Reference.com
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1991.html

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seriously, where do you get your info? Do you think you were the only person alive in the mid-eighties? I at least know guys who worked the beat back then. Basing 3/4 of your info on Sam Smith is a poor way to pass yourself off as an expert. Collins was not seen by Krause as a finishing coach. Jackson had won with the Patroons.

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

Your comment doesn't even relate to the quote cited so why cite it?


I never professed to have any inside knowledge and I don't even think that I was reading Sam Smith back then. Probably Bernie Lincicome but thanks anyway.

I also never professed to be an expert. What I am is a dude that is comfortable with what he knew about the team during that period in history. This whole "Collins wasn't a finished coach" is revisionist spin.

If you know the Bulls of 89 (as you are claiming) then you know that they weren't a finished team. There is a very clear reason for that.

I just demonstrated in the comment above yours about what I know. Before I cited facts I simply used recall. It is obvious that some of you that seek to bash me really didn't watch the team much during those years because you never have any specifics about anything. Trying to zone in on me is frankly old and tired at this point.

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I'm on your side of this argument in that I think Krause was clearly more important as the architect of those great Bulls teams, but you're being a little too dismissive of Phil who handled big egos better than any NBA coach ever has. Hell, he even got Jordan to read a book or two.

Also, we've all heard the rumors regarding Collins' firing. I don't know what's true, but I think that fact that Reinsdorf was willing to consider bringing him back later shows that his dismissal was not likely related to basketball.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Regarding the Collins rumors you guys are being worse than a Score know nothing. "I know this but I won't say". If you have the story, spill it.

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Elections have consequences.

The more I think about this subject, the more certain I am that Tex Winter (triangle architect) and Johnny Bach (Doberman defense). Burning sage and book of the month gimmicks seem less important than we were led to believe back then.

Plus iirc, Jordan was publicly seemingly the closest to Bach, who left/was pushed out after the first threepeat. And his game seemed most shaped by Bach's aggressive style

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Yep. That was an admittance by Reinsdorf. It also sort of refuted the rumors about his wife too.

I don't really dismiss Jackson I just never got the feeling the Bulls couldnt win without him. It was a shock when Collins was fired. An absolute shock. It is being spun now as if it was common knowledge that the Bulls couldn't win with him as coach and thus they needed to make a change.

Would he have won 6 rings? Don't know but I'm certain he would have won multiple championships as Bulls coach.

My point is that Jackson was a snake. Collins viewed him as that and you see it being played out now. Look at what he did with the Bulls. Lakers. Now the Knicks.

He is messy as hell and he has always aired guys out in the media. Always backdoored guys. Winning championships shouldn't obscure who he is.

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Yep. That was an admittance by Reinsdorf. It also sort of refuted the rumors about his wife too.

I don't really dismiss Jackson I just never got the feeling the Bulls couldnt win without him. It was a shock when Collins was fired. An absolute shock. It is being spun now as if it was common knowledge that the Bulls couldn't win with him as coach and thus they needed to make a change.

Would he have won 6 rings? Don't know but I'm certain he would have won multiple championships as Bulls coach.

My point is that Jackson was a snake. Collins viewed him as that and you see it being played out now. Look at what he did with the Bulls. Lakers. Now the Knicks.

He is messy as hell and he has always aired guys out in the media. Always backdoored guys. Winning championships shouldn't obscure who he is.

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Anyone who remembers it at the time knows that's true. Bulls fans were furious with Collins being fired. It was like, "WHAT THE FUCK!!??" It would be like if prior to last season the Cubs had fired Maddon and made John Mallee the manager saying that Maddon got them to Point B with 97 wins and a Wild Card but he wasn't the guy to get them to Point C (World Series) and Mallee was the man for that.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Supposedly he was bagging somebody's daughter. I don't know who's or if it's even true.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Oh I thought it would be more fun like Horace Grant is Chris' real dad.

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Elections have consequences.

There were all kinds of rumors at the time if you remember. Because firing a coach like Collins in that situation after he had just won two playoff series as an underdog and the team was obviously on a big upswing was such a head-scratcher. And then to give the job to a guy who had zero respect in the league at the time. The only guy who would take a chance on Phil then was Krause. And I don't even think he was the lead assistant. It was just weird. People weren't happy about Phil. Of course, after six championships it's really easy to forget that.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I've heard the rumors of Collins getting with someone he shouldn't have, but that was mostly from the Score years after the fact. I recall reading that Collins disliked some of Krause's draft picks (Will Perdue and Stacey King), and would go to Reinsdorf to complain. Given how insecure Krause was you could see how this would be a problem. He always insisted on having his guys as coach. Phil Jackson was his guy at that point. Years later when Phil rebelled, Tim Floyd was his guy.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

my comment was related to your comment that Jackson was a "snake who backdoored Collins". Not a bit of that statement is veritably true, you have no personal direct info to support it, and you stating it makes it seem as though you have some inside info. I didn't even look at who posted the comment before I replied to it, which is very often true of me. Thinking I'm "zoning in" on you is just more irrefutable proof of a complex on your part. According to guys I know who were stringing for the Bulls at that time frame, Krause disliked Collins' style and thought he was too hyper to get the team to the next stage, plus as someone has already pointed out correctly, Collins disliked some of Krause's picks. Dalliances with women was not one of the things mentioned to me.

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

Its not about a complex as it is about the personal nature iin a lot of what you and a few others often post. If you wish to disagree then disagree. It doesn't make me an expert because i voice an opinion. It doesn't make you one because you present a counter. When you start talking about me acting as if I'm the only one that watched the Bulls during the 80's you validate what I stated. My point was addressed to one person yet you decided to chime in with your own experiences. Thus when I speak of zoning in its obvious what goes on with a few of you.


As far as inside info Doug Collins has been quoted as stating that he believes that Phil Jackson snaked him. My source I guess you can say was him.

The A to B to C thing came out later but there was little about what Collins did with the Bulls which suggested that he wasn't the guy to get them to the next level. If they really had a problem with Collins as a COach Reinsdorf would not have reached out to him years later. That is my opinion. I don't have inside info on that.

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This is an interesting article from the period written by Sam Smith.

doug collins anatomy of a firing - Google Search
https://www.google.com/search?ei=A1f2WN ... 3fEHEJQp6Q

This is really a good read.

Any guesses on who was leaking the information?

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The error people keep making is suggesting that PJ screwing Collins out of his job somehow invalidates popular opinion of Jackson as one of the best coaches ever, and quite possibly the best NBA coach ever. That has nothing to do with PJ's accomplishments, and the question of whether or not Collins could have met or exceeded Phil's success in Chicago is simply irrelevant. Phil is the GOAT.

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The Snake like qualities I attribute to him relate to Collins and Anthony. The original point was related to that. Anyone that wishes to debate his coaching ability is ok too. As far as coaching goes I look for different things. He took over a team that won 50 games and took them to a championship. He took over a Lakers team that was also ready to win. Yes he has championships many in fact but he was in the right place and the right time for both. The snake like way he backdoored Collins then Krause then West demonstrates something about his character.

He is one of the greatest coaches in history based upon his accomplishments. When it comes to value I ascribe more to the builders and players in/ of those franchises than I ascribe to him. I don't know if Collins would have won 6 with the Bulls. I do believe that he would have won multiple championships though.

I don't blame him for not being able to get them over the hump. When he coached the Bulls Scottie Pippen was far from anyone's Robin and there was a question as to whether the back injury would end his career.

It truly was Jordan and the Jordannaires at the time. Phil Jackson would not have changed that and been able to win. They needed for Pippen to come along and be a legitimate No. 2 guy. At no point previously did Jordan have that.

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How do you figure that Krause was "clearly more important"? How do you measure that? Krause can hand a coach a team filled with All Pros and they still aren't going anywhere if some bum is calling the shots on the sideline.

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Bach and Winter weren't around for all 11 of Jackson's championships. Who led you to believe Jackson's motivational techniques were mere gimmicks? Some worked and others didn't. I've already pasted direct quotes from Kobe that credit some of Jackson's tactics - was he misled as well?

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