Yeah but they were the definition of a mediocre team even when he was healthy. LBJ won 66 games during one season with Larry Hughes as his sidekick. We already went over each team's roster...not much difference.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

There was a difference. Cleveland's was better at every position

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If so then it was neglible. Again. Delonte West. Donyell Marshall. Drew Gooden. Remember all that flak LBJ got for passing the ball during the final seconds of the fourth quarter in the finals (I think)? He passed to Donyell Marshall.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Irrelevant.


1. Wade was the best player on that team, not Shaq (Shaq was still good of course), but Wade was already an established franchise NBA player before/without LeBron. And that's really the point I'm making.
2. I never said Wade was as good or as dominant as LeBron, so this point is also irrelevant.
3. See #2
4. (and this is just hilarious) LBJ lost in the finals with a super team that consisted of a prime Wade and Bosh -so, you can think whatever you want in terms of what's suggested -I'll stick with what has actually happened. LeBron teamed up with Wade and Bosh to win a ring -and flopped in his 1st try doing it. Obviously LeBron was the #1 on that Miami team, but looking at what Wade did prior to LeBron and what Wade did with LeBron there are moments during those few years where it's arguable -especially considering LeBron went to Wades team and Wade already had a ring and a finals MVP to back it up.



My main point here is that Wade was not a 'Pippen' -he's a guy that was the best player on his team at one point that lead his team to a finals win. He was already an established #1 on a team. Pippen (as good as he was) was never that guy.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

He did that once and then didn't do shit for years until LBJ saved his ass by taking him to four straight finals. Once LBJ dumped Wade he went on to three more finals (and counting) while Wade sunk to irrelevancy just like he did when Shaq left. If anyone is riding coattails here it's Wade.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Wade is old now. He has gone to 3 finals in a row by having the highest payroll in the league and having the sense to team up with 2 all stars. Guess that has no relevance. Also plays in a conference that you continuously state is weak as,shit.

_________________

lol @ a guy without a ring 'saving' a guy that already had one without him. You're coming across as bitter about something at this point. Not a good look.


Wade was never 'Pippen', LBJ teamed up with another Alpha because he couldn't be the Alpha on his own to get his 1st rings. That's a fact. That actually happened.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Not bitter at all. Just trying to point out Wade hasn't done shit in this league without an all pro-type teammate. LBJ has. That's pretty much it.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Agreed.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

And my point is that Wade isn't a 'Pippen' and never has been. So you're drawing the conclusion that LBJ is a better player than Wade?

Cool. Join everyone else in agreeing on that then I guess. Doesn't change the fact that LBJ had to run into the arms of another Alpha in Wade to get his 1st rings.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

LeBron played with a Center who averaged 17/8.6/2 and didn't make the playoffs. Wade played with a Center who averaged 20/9/2 and won the NBA finals. Your narrative here quickly falls apart with even a little bit of research

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No one wants to explain why this supposedly beast alpha Wade failed to do anything once Shaq declined and left the Heat.



Wade is a Pippen. Perhaps he was Jordan in 2006, but then he became a classic good stats bad team guy for a few years before LBJ propelled the Heat back into relevance. It's simple: look at Wade without Shaq, then look at him without LBJ. What do you have? Nothing.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

lol


LBJ couldn't win without Wade at that point, even LBJ doesn't agree with you.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

That's not true. I've explained it to you several times. You just refuse to acknowledge it so you're continuing with the false narrative that the Cavs and Heat were equally talented in 2009

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

We went over this before. Even at 32 you can't compare Shaq to Illguskas. Shaq was all pro either during the championship year or just one year prior. He was the marquee acquisition - the Heat traded the farm for him and after they did they went to the finals. And when he got injured they became irrelevant. Not a coincidence. He was a difference maker. No one on the Cavs was outside of LBJ. If any narrative is falling apart it's that of Wade's. Once again: the Heat and Cavs surrounding Wade and LBJ with mediocre talent. If Wade is this supposed difference making alpha why didn't he shape the Heat into a contender post-Shaq like LBJ did with similar talent?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I listed the three best players from each team a few pages ago to demonstrate equivalence in talent and you didn't object. Now you're objecting?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Because Wade had a significantly worse surrounding cast than LeBron.

You can equivocate all you want but you are simply wrong about 2005-2006 Shaq. He was a good player. He was a little bit better at that point than Zydrunas. He wasn't a lot better. You keep acting like Wade had 2001 Shaq on his team and keep refusing to acknowledge that Shaq wasn't that great that year. It's sad.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Keeping the framework in mind (no all pro type teammates), LBJ was a winner relative to Wade. Two 60+ win seasons, a finals appearance, and consistent top 4 finishes at the end of the regular season.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I've consistently said you were wrong in this thread multiple times about that. When I get home I'll go on my computer and we can go player by player and see who did what on each team. I guarantee you at least 7 of the 10 best players on both teams combined would come from Cleveland.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Vegan, what are you getting at here anyway? What do you want to tell us about LeBron -that he's really better than MJ?


I don't agree personally if that's where this is going, for me this ship sailed after LBJ dropped a finals with a Super Team to the Mavs, but whatever.


If your point revolves around people acknowledging LBJ as a terrific player and a once in a generation talent? I don't disagree there and already appreciate him as this. Can't speak for others tho. As I said in my very 1st post in this thread, LeBron is the best player since Kobe and most likely a step above Kobe at this point (even tho he has less finals wins). That said, I still put Magic above LBJ -whom I also view as a better comparison to LBJ as well.


But Jordan? Jordan is still well above these guys imo.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

No, what's sad is you trying to gloss over what Shaq meant to the Heat. Look how articles published at that time talk about Shaq: "shifting the balance of power," "dramatically improve Miami's chances of winning it all," and so on. On top of that, the Heat traded a 24 or 23 year old Lamar Odom, a 23 or 24 old Caron Butler, Brian Grant, and a first round pick for Shaq, in addition to awarding him a massive extension shortly thereafter (I think). And now you want to say he was barely better than Illguskas? That's what's sad.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/b ... rade_x.htm

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Wades 1st ring>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>All of LBJ's accomplishments you just listed. Even LBJ seemed to feel that way, hence why he sought Wade and Bosh out.

Why is this so hard to accept? Its not like, you know, it didn't actually happen.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Literally none of what you just posted says even one thing about how good Shaq was when they won the title. It's all ancillary bullshit in lieu of an actual counter argument.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No, I'm team MJ, though I like LBJ better as a player and public figure.

All I'm trying to do here is push back against the pro-Wade narrative that claims LBJ was more in need of Wade than vice versa. Look, Wade won a ring as the best player - no argument. But unlike FF says, Shaq wasn't some stiff at that time, so there's that. Here's the thesis: when you compare Wade and LBJ when both had no one of repute surrounding them, you can say with confidence that LBJ was the one who was on track to win a ring.

Remember, he left a contender to join the hapless Heat. If he stayed in Cleveland they still would have been a contender. They were only two years removed from playing in the finals with Donyell Marshall playing in the fourth quarter. Add a legit second star to Cleveland in 2010, have LBJ stay, and they're likely playing LA in the finals. Wade and Bosh would have made a great 50 win team that loses to Cleveland or Boston in the playoffs.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I find it amusing that you're constantly bashing Donyell Marshall when he would be better than any non-Shaq teammate Wade played with his first six years in the league.

I never said Shaq was a stiff. I've consistently said he was a good player in 2005. Since we are at the agree to disagree stage I'll simply say if he was the dominant guy you claim it somehow doesn't show up statistically.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'd take Haslem over Marshall.

Not saying Shaq was dominant LA-style, but more talented/useful than anyone LBJ had on his team until he left for Miami. I mentioned the trade because it indicates Shaq's value at the time. You're not trading two all star prospects in their 20s, Brian Grant, and a first round pick for the equivalent of Big Z.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

It indicates his value two years before he won a title with Wade. It does not reflect his value in June of 2006

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Veganfan getting knocked the fuck out in this thread.

_________________

Still, he didn't go from being worth Odom, Butler, Grant, and a pick to being worth peanuts after only one season of ball.

24 PER (27 for Wade), 34/10/3 per 100 possessions, 23/11/2 per 36 mins, and 20/9/2 for actual.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Yeah, that's a good player. It's not a dominant player.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul