You're speculating. Okafor will still fetch more in a trade than Noel. That is why he hasn't been dealt. He is also valuable insurance against the inevitable Embiid injury. Noel is a bum.

_________________

That's speculation too. That's all either of us are doing when talking about his contract and his trade value.

I have stats on my side. You don't really have anything on your side. All you want to talk about his points per game but you don't think Isaiah Thomas is very good so it's hard to take you seriously given your inconsistency on the issue.

I don't care if a guy can score. I care if he can help a team win. Noel can do that. As of right now it doesn't look like Okafor can.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Noel has no offensive ability. Okafor draws double teams.

Defensively, Noel is quick but not strong.

It's not like Noel is a rebounding freak either. He avg 1 rebound more per game for his career thus far. You don't care that a guy can score in a sport which depends on scoring to win is one of the stranger thoughts I've heard in a while too. Saying that a guy that you don't have to guard helps a team win is second on that list.

Okafor does everything better with a basketball than Noel. Actually Okafor is the perfect test case for the modern NBA. It's one of the reasons that I hope he turns out.

_________________

Okafor doesn't really draw double teams though. He did occasionally as a rookie mainly due to how inept his teammates were.

There's no doubt that Okafor is a better offensive player but it's not by a wide enough margin to make up for his abysmal defense and lack of rebounding.

I have no issue with someone saying they think Okafor will be better going forward. But going on what they've done as pros so far Noel has clearly been better.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You're getting worse with this. Okafor Avg 17 and 7 as a rookie in the NBA. He has only played two years in the league and last year they had the crazy rotation thing going on.

His offensive skill level is far superior to that of Noel. Noel has to be in the bottom five in terms of offensive ability. He stinks. Can't shoot. Can't pass. Cant post. Can't dribble.

_________________

If the Bulls had Shaq they'd trade him because he isn't a good fit for hoiball.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Is Noel a good fit for Hoiball?

_________________

Per game comparisons aren't useful for players who don't play the same minutes. Per 36 minutes would be a better indicator, as would rebounding percentage. Noel has a clear advantage in both. If you can't admit Noel is a better rebounder than Okafor it's really not worth continuing this discussion. You're just being blatantly dishonest at that point.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

A dumpster is a great fit for hoiball.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You keep mentioning points per game. I've conceded that point. You are beating a dead horse at this point.

Noel is better at every other facet of basketball. This is why he has a .180 WS/48 compared to Okafor's embarassing .050 WS/48.

Do you think Okafor is better than Rudy Gobert? Why or why not?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Often times pe36 r is useless. A guy that plays an energetic 18 minutes may have a better per than a guy playing 35 simply because he plays 18. There is a reason that he plays 18 minutes per game and not 35. He also is being matched against backups and not starters.

You also cannot simply concede every other facet since offense is the most important facet.


If the guy playing 18 minutes was as good as the guy playing 36 then he'd be playing 36 too.

Nerlens Noel will never play 35 minutes a game because he cannot take the banging that playing 35 minutes entails. He is too weak physically. He is destined to be an "energy" guy. Nothing more nothing less.

_________________

Your comments on offense are hypocritical though given your stance on Isaiah Thomas. Noel is better at every facet of the game than Okafor except offense. John Wall is better than Isaiah Thomas at every facet except offense. We would both rather have Wall though. So you at least gotta be consistent. I've always consistently said I don't have a lot of use for a guy who can score and do nothing else. Those guys don't help teams nearly as much as guys who aren't great scorers but who are good at everything.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I will restrict this to Okafor and Noel. What are all these facets that Noel is supposed to be better at? He is a slightly better rebounder. A much better defender. Okafor is better at every aspect of offense. Noel also isn't dominant at any one phase of Defense. He is just merely better than Okafor. Okafor is a dominant low post player. Tough as he'll to check one on one. With Noel you're essentially playing 4 on 5 on offense. He is that bad. There hasn't been any type of market for Noel. None. Zilch. Either in trade or free agency no one wants the bum.

It is not about what I value either. It's about who I believe is better. Noel stinks.

_________________

Once again, we have no idea what the market for Noel is. Either do I. I'm almost positive that the Mavs would love to sign him to a 4 year/$40MM contract but my guess is he's betting on himself. If that's the case we won't know until next summer.

This upcoming season I predict Noel has a more rpg, mpg, bpg, spg, and a better FG% than Okafor. The advanced metrics will also continue to be heavily in favor of Noel. This is what I mean when I say he's better at every facet of basketball than Okafor.

It's telling that you completely ignored the Wall/Thomas and Okafor/Gobert questions.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

A higher fg% means nothing in the case of Noel. Be doesn't do anything but dunk. MPG doesn't either. Okafor plays behind Embiid. Who does Noel play behind? You can cite all of the metrics you want but when Philly had a chance to trade they traded Noel. Also we do know what the market for Noel was. His market was established when he has traded. He was traded for Justin Anderson. That is his market. He will get more minutes because he plays for a shitty team that doesn't have any quality bigs.

Gobert is better than Okafor but Noel is no Gobert that's why I didn't answer. Wall is better than Isaiah Thomas. Why because he has been better throughout his career. Thomas had one year of playing at a high level. Could be an outlier. These are bad comp. And not relevant that's why I ignored it.

_________________

Isaiah Thomas is a slightly better scorer. Doesn't make him a better offensive player. Blows him out the water with his assist totals and also is a much better defender than Thomas. I don't care for shoot first pgs. That's another reason I think Wall is better. Still not relevant to Okafor and Noel.

As far as minutes argument goes you don't make much sense either. During Noel's and Okafor's rookie season they both avg 30 min per game. Noel avg 1 more rebound per game. For their career Noel has avg .4 more blocks. They have have avg about the same number of minutes with Noel playing in more games.

Okafor is a much better offensive player. Noel's offense is non existent. A 23 year old kid in this market would be highly sought after if the believed he could really play. He will end up resigning with Dallas because no one really wants him. It's obvious.

_________________

Are we really going to ignore all the reports about the Sixers desperately trying to trade Okafor before the deadline and receiving little to no interest from the rest of the league? I guess since he wasn't actually traded, his value is anywhere between 0 and infinity and we can't say anything substantive about where it was more likely to be

The Bulls were ready to trade Mirotic and Philly said no. That was reported. Mirotic is better than Justin Anderson. Philly wasn't going to give Okafor away like they did for Noel. Are those the reports you're talking about?

Little to no interest you say?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... BbsUzFj8bQ

_________________

No I'm talking about sources like: Seems mighty strange to have to "search" for a trade for a guy valued highly by the rest of the league, no?

FF has already told you that Anderson wasn't the only thing that the Sixers got back for Noel, but beyond that, his contract probably was better than a half season rental of Mirotic anyway.

I don't know how you constitute "getting back" but 2 second round picks and Andrew Bogut is the equivalent of getting nothing else back.

If Philly wanted to trade Okafor they could. I'm sure they'd simply find someone with an expiring contract if nothing else. They want value for him. Article also said that the interest came from the Bulls end. N. O. Was also interested. You conveniently ignored it because it doesn't fit the narrative.

_________________

Why is Philly's valuation of Okafor now suddenly more relevant than the rest of the league's considerably lower opinion of him? You've frequently used the opinions of potential trade partners in the past when assessing the value of a given asset (e.g., no one wanting to trade a first-round pick for Thibodeau or the failure to get a better return for Taj) and have cited such things as pertaining to those guys' actual objective value, yet now suddenly the trading team's opinion is what's paramount? By the very standards you've used in the past, Okafor is not valued highly by the rest of the league.

You said there was "no" reported nterest in him. I provided reported interest in him. The argument is Noel vs Okafor. If Philly wanted to give Okafor away they could. They gave Noel away. You can say they got something in return but if GarPax had made a similar trade you'd be all over them as usual. They got nothing for Noel because he is garbage

No matter how it is spinned there isn't much interest. No buzz. No nothing. He will resign with Dallas and it won't be for anything close to what he thinks he's worth.

The Bulls were willing to give up Mirotic but Philly wanted more in the trade. That was widely reported. Speculating about rentals is your way of dismissing something that doesn't fit your narrative.

It's always based on the trading teams opinion. What are you talking about? The market for Okafor will be established once he is traded. That is when you really know for sure what he is worth. I could make the case that his value is diminished because everyone knows he will have to be moved.

I'm not though.

_________________

Mirotic is a restricted free agent. It's not "speculation" to say he'd need a new contract at the end of the season, in contrast to Anderson who's locked in for 3 more years. And you've used the non-occurrence of trades in the past to make sweeping statements about the trade value of guys the Bulls have been unable to move (who you also most coincidentally happen to dislike). Now when it seems a guy you like isn't valued by the rest of the league, suddenly everything is just speculation until a trade actually occurs.

God these fucking quotes. I have arthritis from just scrolling down.

_________________

Sorry, I usually try to limit it to the post I'm quoting when it goes beyond 2-3 and have edited the last one.

There should be a hyphen between "low post."

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

If Philly believes that Okafor is worth more than the NBA then that's their right. They may be wrong and time will tell on that. The Bulls and most people commenting here always believed that Taj was more valuable than he actually was. If GarPax had gotten the return for Okafor that Philly got for Noel there is no doubt that you'd be bashing the he'll out of them.

In fact Gibson was a free agent (which according to you diminishes value) yet conveniently you failed to mention it while bashing the hell out of GarPax as they traded for Cameron Payne.

_________________