You're close but what I actually will say is we don't know how great Kyrie is. I'm in favor of finding out. For some reason you are not.

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You're implying LBJ is standing in his way but the stats suggest the opposite. He's flourished with LBJ as a sidekick and if anything his stats will get worse once he's on his own. He went 0-8 when LBJ was sidelined and he had a chance to be the man. Depending on where he lands his usage rate is going to skyrocket, which means his efficiency will drop off. He'll get his points and maybe a handful of assists, but historically it's simply not that difficult to beat a team whose best player is a PG. We know enough to say Kyrie is damn good, which is obvious at this point. But I don't think he's got another gear. He's not going to do what Westbrook did last year, for example. At least I don't think so.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

If he switched spots with Westbrook I think he could absolutely lead that team to 45 wins and one single playoff win. You're acting like Westbrook set the bar high. I already covered why I don't consider last season's stats without LeBron predictive of future performance so i won't rehash that.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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With Westbrook I also meant the triple double. One win in the playoffs doesn't seem impressive but remember this is the WC we're talking about. Westbrook probably wins 50 in the east. But that's interesting because I don't think Irving could do that if he switched spots. I'll do a av/sig bet with you about Irving's record next year depending on where he ends up.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Like you said we would have to see where he ends up. But that's the crux of our disagreement and one reason why I really don't like relying solely on stats for evaluation. Based on what I have seen from watching both players extensively for years, I have no reason to think westbrook is better than Kyrie. He's better at rebounding. I'm not sure what else he is better at.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

We'll, statistically speaking, he also outdoes Irving in assists. Not relying on stats but to use them to illustrate other points, check this out: https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... dx=players

Outside of three point shooting it's not clear what Kyrie does better than Westbrook.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

That's why I said what I did about stats. Westbrook isn't better than Kyrie at passing the ball. Neither one is a particularly skilled passer or pure PG. if Westbrook played with LeBron the past three years his assists numbers would undoubtedly be significantly lower. Even a guy like Durant as a teammate was obviously nowhere near as ball dominant.

Kyrie is much better than Westbrook at half court iso offense as well as shooting. Westbrook is better at rebounding and pushing the ball in transition. I'm not sure who is better but Kyrie's skill set is much easier to play alongside of than Westbrook's if you are another star player.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

To be honest I think it is part own team part LeBron extrication. If he goes to S.A. it is Kawhi Leonard's team. I think he has found it difficult to play with LeBron James. Chris Bosh found that out and so has Kevin Love. Winning with the most talented teams in the Conf really isn't difficult.

The last time that LeBron played on a team that wasn't the most talented was 09-10 and they were bounced in the 2nd rd. Did he elevate them to "greatness?

As I stated before it's unfair to Expect Irving to elevate that collection of bums to anything. 33 wins was quite the achievement and he also missed a number of games or that win total would be higher.

If he were not the player that he is James doesn't come back to Cleveland. For all of James's ability to "elevate" let's not forget that he ran from Miami when he believed that their window had closed. He is about to do the exact same thing with Cleveland too. Apparently his ability to elevate does have limitations.

_________________

I think we disagree on the half court stuff. I'm fully on board with Westbrook as an alpha. We'll see how the next few years go if Kyrie gets his own team. Not going to be pretty.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Irving is a better passer and ball handler than Westbrook. Westbrook is a better defender. He is also more athletic. Irving is the better finisher at the rim

Offensively Kyrie Irving has the most complete skill set of any player in the league.

At 25 years of age Westbrook wasn't the player that Irving is either. He also wasn't as accomplished. It is easy to say that Irving plays with James but Westbrook played with Durant and Harden. I'm a Westbrook fan but he wasn't the player that Irving is at the same age.

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Were you on board with Westbrook as alpha prior to last season? I doubt it very seriously.

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I'm still not on board with Russ as an alpha. He's never going to win a title as the best player. I'm not sure he's ever going to make the second round as the best player. He's not a winner. He's a me first stats guy. You wanna go to battle with a PG who shoots 4-18 in the 4th quarter alone of a close playoff game, more power to you.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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This is nonsense. They make the 2nd round this year with him as the best player.

_________________

I doubt it. We'll see.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I was listening to a podcast awhile ago where they discussed this. I can't find the stats because I don't have a Synergy Sports account, but IIRC, Kyrie was in the 89th percentile of players in half court isolation possessions, which was tops among PGs. I think Westbrook was around the 40th percentile.

Edit: I could only find the points per possession of half court isolation plays. Kyrie is at 1.12, Russ is at .94

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I guess that's true, in the same way a D- is better than a F.

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I love you more than words can tell
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To rock my soul

I've already said this in other threads but that OKC team is going to take a step backward, not forward. Westbrook will never win a title as the main guy playing like he does. Paul George is about to get exposed playing in the western conference. I watched a lot of Indy games and that dude only showed up when he thought he needed to. Good at talking the talk though.

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Both are better defenders than Curry though. At least they guard their position. I know the silly metric system of John Hollinger will suggest otherwise however.

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Yeah, we just agree to disagree on this. I'd rather have Curry than both of those guys defensively. I can't knock Curry just because he has a smarter coach and plays in a better defensive system than the other two guys.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You seem awfully mad about the Warriors being able to hide Curry and play such good defense. One thing we know for sure is that the contributions of 2017 DPOY Draymond Green have little to do with their success in that regard, as he doesn't guard the best player on the other team either.

I don't get angry about sports. I'm just calling it for what it is hypocrisy. If you are going to ignore the atrocious defense that he plays then defense should never be brought up in conjunction with any other player.

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The only ignoring that goes on is you ignoring Irving's own horrendous defense by rushing in to cry about Curry every time it's brought up

Well, he's a valuable team defender. Your eye test and metrics responsible for tracking these things both suggest he is. But I'm not ignoring the fact that he's bad at one on one defense, I just don't think it matters all that much because of how good he is offensively. The same is true for Kyrie except to a lesser extent.

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Because if I don't bring it up you surely won't.

_________________

No one would have brought it up because Curry was utterly irrelevant this thread until you came in to cape for Kyrie. Irving doesn't get extra credit for "trying" to play one on one defense. He's still one of the worst defensive point guards in the league and I'm sure the Cavs would be all too happy to hide him on that end of the court as well as the Warriors have hidden Curry.

Actually he does get credit for that. So does Westbrook. Listen players around the league for a change and not writers. They notice when guys don't take covers. The Cavs could easily hide Irving if they chose. All they'd have to do is place Smith or Shumpert on point guards. They don't and it's because they must not think he is that bad.

It will never be relevant where Curry is concerned because when you are in the tank you are in the tank.

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Putting Smith on point guards opens the door for Kyrie to instead get clowned by guys bigger than him. Who pray tell does he guard on Golden State if he's not on Curry? Zaza?

And BTW, during this finals, the Cavs most certainly did attempt to double Curry a lot right at halfcourt. It seems they may have been wary of letting Irving handle the task all by himself.

He could guard Thompson. Thompson isn't a post up player. My point is what's the point of discussing the importance of anyone's defense if the guy with possibly the worst defense in the league is always ignored?

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They were trapping the screen and roll. That's a little different. They were comfortable with him one on one.

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There's literally not one single thing to suggest Steph Curry is the worst defensive player in the league. Nothing.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul