http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1798 ... bron-james
What do I win?

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I still want to know what Jordan having a "manufactured team" meant. I may have missed the explanation for it.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You think Bob Ryan didn't see Oscar play?

Wait a minute - did you even see Oscar play? You ain't that fuckin old.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Even if you wanted to see Oscar play back in the day, did you really have much of a chance, especially if you didn't live in the city he played ? I mean , wasn't the NBA Finals shown on tape delay at one point ?

Yeah, the year before Bird and Magic came into the league.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 5:8

Its not so much they are less than Love and Irving. It's all relative to who both teams are competing against. Lebron James has had cakewalks to the Finals the past 7 years. The most talented team that he has had to beat in order to get to the Finals was the Bulls team from 3 season's ago. Thibs last year. Whether you believe that team was good or not is up to you but you'd be hard pressed to find a team more talented from those years.



Jordan's ride was more difficult. He also got lucky in some respects. Pistons were fading and Injuries derailed Cleveland. Knicks were ok but they were the consummate "whole is better than the sum of their parts" squad.

_________________

Horace Grant was the most overrated player from those championship era teams. He was the one that really rode Jordan coattails. He also was a damn ingrate. The Bulls acquired Rodman resumed their domination of the East.

_________________

Ridiculous.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 5:8

Can someone help explain to LTG that a player can be good without scoring 20 or more PPG.

I swear to god there could be a player that averages 10 rebounds, 10 assists, 4 steals and 3 blocks a game but only scores 6 points and LTG thinks he should be out of the league.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I appreciate role players but I fully understand that they are role players. Your point is sort of nullified by the fact that I'm advocating for the guy that was even more of a role player than Grant.

My problem with HO Grant was that he thought he should have been more than a role player. He used to imply that the reason that he wasn't much of a scorer was because Jordan used to take all of the shots.

Dennis Rodman is quite possibly the best role player of the past 35 years. He was one of my favorite players as a kid and the "Bad Boy" version of Rodman was really something special. One of the best on ball defenders I've ever seen and also one of the most versatile.

_________________

They talk about guys who can guard any position. He was the closest to that I've seen.

_________________

Bump.

_________________

I find it amusing that every spring casual fans like yourself are like “oh yeah, LeBron is great. Oh shit, isn’t he the GOAT?”

Only to get smacked down by reality and facts. Sad!

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yeah, Bulls fans are going to be laughed at for decades trying to continue calling Jordan GOAT

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Bad thought. Stick with baseball.

I’ve said the same thing to you, vegan, and Leash now. Make the case. It won’t end well unless you lean heavily on longevity.

Most basketball fans know at their best it’s not a comparison.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I already made the comparison. LeBron has performed better in the playoffs player versus player, and he has won a championship with a team far inferior to Jordan's Bulls teams. He is likely to win more championships. He is bigger, stronger, faster and plays a more complete game. Jordan scored an infinitesimal amount more, in an era when scoring in the NBA was at an all-time high. So when normalized to today's PPG, LeBron might even outscore Jordan as well.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

The bolded statement here is idiotic and it's what LTG bitches about. In most debates, you make statements about how someone's opinion is "not even close" or "not a comparison" or "ridiculous", and here you go out of your way to call me and others "casual fans."

Whether you want to admit it or not, the debate between Lebron and Jordan is valid. It feels like you've read too many hipster blogs with made-up advanced statistics and use them as gospel, which leads you to make dismissive and overconfident statements like the bolded one above.

_________________

Light up, Francis.

I don’t know what a hipster blog is an I’m confident I have not read too many of them.

Since you get so offended by hyperbole I will correct myself. It’s a comparison. LeBron is great. I don’t think there is a valid argument to say LeBron is better than Jordan though. Better?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yes, it is. Thank you.

_________________

I agree it is open for discussion. The only issue that i really see is the lack of other great players that Lebron has had to compete against. Just like boxing. The reason that guys like Ali are labeled as the greatest of all time is because he had to fight heavyweights that were among the best all time. That really isn't on Lebron as he can only play against the guys that are available but it does take away from his greatness somewhat.

_________________

Jordan didn't have a rival either. The best players in his days were big men. His main competition in the East once they started winning was Reggie Miller and John Starks. Not exactly cut throat.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

FWIW, I've enjoyed watching Lebron's game throughout his whole career than the back half of Jordan's career. Lebron is much more entertaining in his later years.

_________________

Huh? Showing your 90's ness. He had Dumars as a rival. Harper pre injury was a rival. So was Drexler. John Statks was a media creation. He was never a true rival. Each of the 3 guys i named were better players at their best than Miller or Starks. Mitch Richmond was better also. The 2 guard position during that period was the glamour position of the NBA.

_________________

You have to be kidding. Center was the glamor position, and power forward was pretty damn good.

Ewing, Olajuwon, David Robinson , young Shaq, Mourning, Arvydas, Daugherty

PF's - Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Larry Nance, Larry Johnson

Jordan's only two real competitors were Drexler and Richmond. For Christ sake, they once labeled Gerald Wilkins "the Jordan Stopper." I think Jordan put like 50 on him the next time they met.

_________________

And you're showing your inability to read the following caveat in my post "once they started winning." I don't give a shit about Drexler or Richmond - they played in the West and Jordan only saw Drexler in the finals once. Richmond played on a shit Kings team. Some rival.

Dumars isn't a rival - he was a thorn in Jordan's side. LYK already ended this debate by listing the top '90s players. Big men ruled the landscape. Part of Jordan's mythology is that he dominated the game as a guard during a time when big men reigned.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

As I recall, one of the reasons they begged Jordan to play on the Dream Team is because there was such a huge dropoff at the 2 after him. Clyde Drexler was not that great. He was a primary scorer with a career average of 20 PPG and only two seasons scoring over 25. They didn't want him to start on the Dream Team. They practically begged Jordan.

_________________

You sound stupid saying Dumars wasn't a rival. First of all they had to defeat Detroit in order to get to the Finals. This occurred 2 seasons in a row and they also got bounced in the semis another year. Dumars was twice the player John Starks was.

_________________

Yeah there was a real dearth of top flight guards from 90-98.

It was definitely a big man's league.

_________________

I agree that John Starks sucked, but their media-imposed "rivalry" just goes to show how little competition Jordan had on the perimeter. Those Knicks teams gave the Bulls trouble because they were crazy physical. Ewing, Oakley, Smith, Xavier McDaniel and later Mason and Larry Johnson .

_________________

Drexler was regarded as the second best two in the game. He scored and assisted at a high clip. The dropoff was due to Jordan's greatness as a player. 92 was also the year that he destroyed him in the Finals.


Lebron James was outplayed by Durant last year. He was outplayed by Dirk in 11. Leonard held his own with him as developing player.

Jordan was the best player in every finals series that he ever participated in.


Lebron is killing mediocre rookies and other non descript players. These gaudy numbers are not being attained against elite players.

_________________