i'm not basing it on your ill fated "eye test". Its ironic that you criticize me for basing something on an award after you based your assessment on well "an award"

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They sucked last year and I still don't really care about Embiid because he isn't going to stay healthy for his career. Simmons is a once in a generation player and yes, they got him from tanking. But like I already said, there are still at least five better teams that counter this so I don't know why you keep arguing it.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I just posted the picture because it was an easy way to rebut a dumb statement by you. I also backed it up by saying he led the team in BPM, WS, and VORP, three metrics that try to evaluate a player completely. Kawhi's defense is his best attribute so you're gonna have a bad time if you insist on analyzing him by only looking at points, rebounds, and assists.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

while I agree tanking is a bad idea, the Celts built their base with that Nets trade (Pierce and Garnett)

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

Boston's value as a championship contender stems from high draft picks so I really don't know what your point happens to be.

Cleveland's value stemmed from high draft picks. It is why James wanted to return

OKC has been one of the better franchises because of the existence of high draft picks.

Philly is one of the up and coming teams because of the presence of high draft picks.

I don't know what you are really getting at.


There is only one team that really hasn't drafted high and that is Golden State.


You don't have to like Embiid but it doesn't change the fact that he is good. REally good in fact and he had impact last season. I called it then and it has come up roses now.

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Yeah but then we would have to agree on what tanking is. If someone offers you a major haul for two players who have almost nothing left it's simply dumb not to accept it. They only had one bad season during their rebuild also, which I think is pretty important to note for a discussion like this. The 76ers had to be awful for like a decade to finally land Ben Simmons.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yep.

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This entire post is false

Impressive.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yeah Boston isn't any evidence for tanking at all but instead an illustration of what an effective GM and the right trades can do. Unfortunately the Bulls are lacking in that department.

No they attempted to be competitive and it didn't work and thus they decided to reroute. Tanking was extended because of injuries to Embiid and Simmons. They rightly decided to part with guys like MCW and Noel because they weren't really good. It worked.

Effective Tanking depends upon a few things. 1. You have to secure high picks during years in which transformational guys are available. 2. Right guys have to conduct the drafting 3. You have to have a front office that is patient with the process.

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You repeatedly bashed the hell out of Ainge. Now he is an "effective GM". WHo the hell are you crappin? As Leash would say "Classic Revisionism"

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It is all quite true.

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I'm praising his specific ability to acquire assets without tanking, including the high draft picks you keep prattling on about genius. At most I bashed him for crying about the Bulls and Pacers demanding too much for Butler and George when in actuality they ended up getting traded for very little. That of course has next to nothing to do with the war chest he built up for the Celtics in the first place, which did not involve tanking and which there's little reason to believe GarPax could ever hope to replicate.

He didn't really want Butler. Oladipo is actually playing like an All Star so far this season. George also may have left after season too. Ainge has shown himself to be a helluva GM.

You also said that the Irving trade was a lose lose and you were proven wrong about that too.


viewtopic.php?f=91&t=108117

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Oladaipo's value this season has next to nothing to do with how he was valued when that trade was actually made and how easily Boston could have beaten OKC's offer. Glad you're ready to pop bottles on the Irving trade 16 games into the season.

I'll accept your concession that Ainge did not actually build the bulk of this Boston through purposeful tanking and agreement that GarPax could never pull off anything like the Brooklyn trade.

A thread on historically bad and no mention of Phoenix?

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

The bulk of Ainge's heavy lifting was done with High draft picks. Without Jersey's pick Cleveland doesn't do the deal.


The Bulls are about to net 4 starters from this Butler trade. 2 to 3 may be all stars. When it happens you will attempt to use the same rather weak argument regarding (at the time). Regardless of what you think Oladipo's value happen to be it's obvious Indiana's GM believed differently.

You didn't believe Irving was worth more than Butler and you were proven wrong about that too.

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Thoughts, Bulls are +6.5 against Hornets at Mirage. How do you play it?

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Hawaii (fuck) You

And your argument has been that you need to tank to win, yet that pick was acquired without tanking. It's in fact evidence for the opposite of the point you were originally trying to make.


How exactly are the Bulls going to net 4 starters from the Butler trade when they only got 3 players from it? Four starters and possibly 2-3 all-stars would be quite an impressive haul though and far more than what Cleveland got in return for Irving, so if what you say is true that just shows how highly valued Butler was compared to him.

Lay the points.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If it turns out that way the Bulls would have garnered a higher return.

Trading Butler put them in position to possibly pick first in Next year's draft.

Trading Butler also netted Markannen and Lavine both of whom are starters. If Dunn turns out to be a starter that would be 4 starters.

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Markus should be taking 25 shots per game

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

This is absurd. Would you say cutting Butler may have netted the Bulls a high draft pick and possible all-star because that would similarly guarantee a high pick in the next draft?

Dunn can't even start behind the bad point guards on the current roster. Lavine is coming off an ACL injury to his leaping leg and the current coach is unlikely to do a thing about the bad defense that made him a net negative on the court in Minnesota.

Lavine actually is jumping higher than he was pre injury if reports are to be believed. Markannen for Butler straight up appears to be a win for the Bulls.

Don't know if stat gazing guys like you have noticed but top 10 Jimmy Butler hasn't exactly blown the spot up thus far.

He is shooting 39% from the field and isn't scoring much either.

Looks like Paxson traded him about the right time.

You repeatedly bash GMs for all of these hypothetical trades. You don't establish the value of players the market does.

Trading Butler actually took foresight.


The Same GarPax crew that you incessantly bash for lacking foresight may have drafted the best player in this year's draft. He is currently the 2nd best player from that draft behind Tatum..

You are so biased that you either a. Won't give credit for the move or B. Come up with a rationale lacking in relevancy as a means of diminishing it.

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Yeah I'm calling BS on Lavine being more explosive post-ACL surgery until I actually see anything, and even if I was to buy that it may be true outside of the game, that's still quite a bit different from being able to do in full contact games. Even when he comes back, the Bulls probably won't be able to determine anything one or another until next season, by which point they'll already have to decide whether to give him a max or not.

As for the Butler trade, I must note as always it's quite interesting to see you run to the stats to criticize him when the guy you're hyping up as being an MVP candidate is shooting 43%, 31 from the 3, and averaging a whopping 20 a game. I guess it's about stats where Butler is concerned, but wins and losses when it comes to Irving?

Finally, Butler wasn't traded straight up for Lauri, Dunn, and Lavine, but the Bulls also had to give up their own pick. As you may recall, this is exactly one of the reasons why the trade was ripped nationally and it seems to me that hanging onto such picks (or Jordan Bell) may have been a decent idea for a rebuilding team. Indeed, I recall one of the arguments being made in this very thread was that stockpiling picks is the best way to win in the NBA.

It wasn't me proclaiming Irving an MVP candidate. Followers of the league have proclaimed him to be an MVP candidate.

He is the best player on the team with the best record in the league.

You claimed the trade was a loss for Boston and you've already been proven wrong.

His stats aren't great but his team is winning which places in the conversation. The fact that they have been without their 2nd best player places him in the conversation also.
Jordan Bell is at best a rotation player. If that is the hill you wish to die have at it. Losing him isn't a great loss.

Let's see what the No. 16 pick in the draft does. I'm sure you will have more pie in the sky theories to pontificate about if it doesn't amount to much.

If it does well then it's a reflection of further GarPax incompetence. If it doesn't then the pick and not the player was valuable because they didn't have to draft said player.

That is your M.O.

Irving wasn't more valuable than Butler during the speculative stage. Once he fetched more in return then it became about GarPax inability to secure better deals.

You even blamed Ainge for overvaluing Irving. Instead of just acknowledging that he held out for the better player it became about your perception that he was an incompetent GMs.

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Unanimous top 3 among league insiders is freak, Harden and LBJ. Maybe porzingus. Irving isn't anywhere close, especially when he has about five more assists than his starting pf. At best he's playing well enough to be featured on the cover of NBA Live 2018. Tatum is the player that you'll have to pay to unlock though.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Irving's team also most magically kept winning even when Irving himself hasn't played (indeed they have a higher winning percentage without him than with him!). It's almost like the Celtics are a really good team and Stevens is a really good coach regardless of Irving.

The Wolves by contrast got throttled the 2 games Butler sat.

Losing him for nothing more than cash is in fact a loss if you care more about the Bulls future chances of winning than Reinsdorf's bottom line. And he has in fact already been a positive contributor for the defending champions, which makes him better than at least 75% of the Bulls current roster.
Patton himself doesn't have to be great for my point to stand. Kuzma has just as much an argument for being the second best pick of the draft as Markannen so far, and he was sitting right there at 16.

Nope I was criticizing the return the Bulls got long before it was even apparent that Irving was on the block. As were most national observes.
Wrong timeline again. No one had the slightest clue Irving wanted out when Ainge sat around as Butler and George were traded.

Feel free to join the Kyrie Trade Results thread anytime

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Minnesota also lost to Phoenix with him playing.

What you keep ignoring is that reports were that Ainge wasn't really all that enamored with Butler the player. Zach Lowe reported this months ago.

As far as Irving goes you really aren't making much sense.

They are on a 14 game winning streak in which he has played 12. He also is the undisputed go to guy in crunch time.

As far as GarPax goes there is no way they spot Markannen if they are as incompetent as you keep suggesting. I really don't care for Forman so I should refrain from GarPax. Paxson knows basketball.

They don't spot Markannen if they are that bad. I don't recall you touting the pick either.

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