What effort guys average 23-6-5?

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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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But the greats have talent and a will to be great. Guys who are talented and just coast along are worthless and hurt the team more than non-talented guys who hustle.

_________________

An effort guy who came into the league with below average to average talent and worked his ass off daily to get better.

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GO BEARS!!!

You mean Rookie of the Year MCW, same as Wiggins was?

Goes to show that a high draft pick, 'talent' and a quick start can only get you so far! Guess I'd rather take the player that, I don't know, actually gets better at basketball?

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

That's what I'm talking about. This is why discussion of talent is irrelevant. If you're gonna dismiss Butler as an effort guy, then we are pretty much saying everyone outside of the top 7 or 8 guys in the league are effort guys and there's actually very little talent in the league. It makes no sense.

Talent is what you can do on a basketball court, and it all comes from hard work. Nobody is coming out of the womb shooting threes and dunking. Jimmy Butler is better at playing basketball than all but 12-15 players in the entire world(could argue 10 but I picked a number range that cant really be disputed). If that's not talent then talent doesn't exist.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

This is dumb. It still doesn't mean that Wiggins isn't more talented athletically. It also doesn't matter whether you agree or not. It's a fact borne out from testing.

While you're talking Iso I've seen Butler blow a few games because he struggled to get shots off down the stretch. Most notably against Philly last week.

He is avg 20 per game and you're acting like he is leading the league in scoring. Lou Williams avg that from Christ sakes.

He and Wiggins avg the same points shot almost same percentage too. Wiggins is 6 years younger. Most people would obviously see that he has more "upside" as a player.

That speaks to his overall talent. Since you can't discuss the game without resorting to stat talk you won't see that either.

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Let's look at the career numbers of Butler vs Wiggins. If age doesn't matter during the assessment then shouldn't Butler's career avg be closer to 22 ppg? and not 16?


You say Butler is the better scorer. Then why does Wiggins have a higher career scoring avg?

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And here comes the lies! Straight outta the LTG playbook. Read this thread again and you can see me talking about Butler's talents as a player without referencing stats.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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No, Butler is a lot better now than he was 5 years ago. Similar to Kawhi Leonard. I never once disputed who was better coming into the league between Butler and Wiggins. The discussion has always been about who is better now.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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Also, for accuracy:

Butler is scoring 20.1 PPG on 46% FG and a 56% TS%.

Wiggins is scoring 17.9 PPFG on 43% FG and a 50% TS%.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Yeah but Kyrie isn't better now he is simply having a "career year". You don't see the inconsistency in that. Butler has been in the league 7 years and entered the league at the age Wiggins is now. When Wiggins is 28 years old I'm certain that he will be better than what Butler is now.

Butler's peak was 3rd team All NBA. That was only once at that. You overrate him and then discredit the things that don't agree with your point of view.

Wiggins is scuffling now but earlier in the year he was playing better than Butler.

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ftfy

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I was referring to last season. Hence the use of term "shot"

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And yet 'avg' is the abbreviation for average...present tense. So here we are.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Wiggins will never be better than Butler is now.

You do realize that I'm on Team Kyrie, right? I think he's a great player and I thought he was going to have a career year this year and he is so far. Ask veganfan if I think Kyrie is good or not. Your problem is that you think it's a "diss" when I say that he isn't as good as Butler and Steph Curry.

And yes, Kyrie is better now than he was a few years ago.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Wiggins is perhaps the most one dimensional player in the NBA. He's a shit defensive player, a black hole on offense, no distributing skills whatsoever, he has no jump shot and he's a mediocre rebounder. He's purely a slasher and an athlete and has not shown any improvement since entering the NBA. If I were you I wouldn't be certain of anything concerning Wiggins in the future.

Butler is a top 15 to 20 guy who can flirt with the top 10. I wouldn't put the number at 7 or 8 but you know them when you see them. Marshmelo was one of those talented guys who could wake up and give you 30 but he was only willing to work so hard. That's why he struggled in the playoffs when guys give maximum effort.

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GO BEARS!!!

Last season, for accuracy:

Butler scored 23.9 PPG on a .586 TS%
Wiggins scored 23.6 on a .534 TS%

I do not consider those the same percentage, and either should you.

And as a bonus, Butler's team made the playoffs despite not having a teammate nearly as TALENTED as KAT. Wiggins team did not make the playoffs.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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Kyrie is a little bitch who will get pancaked by LBJ in the playoffs. Anyone can have a career year after leaving a championship squad to do your own little.thing on a team led by two rookies.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

The Butler thing really isn't a conversation at this point and he really is creeping into Curry territory. Numbers and everything.

Again you look at them at the same age and Kyrie was no doubt a better player. You exhibit too much bias. I posted last year's finals and Irving's numbers were comparable to Curry. failed to note that.

Wiggins will be a dynamic scorer as he moves along. Not enough ball on that squad right now.

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Does anyone care to discuss what they believed Butler to be at 22 or 25 for that matter?

I'm not sold on him but I think he will be a guy that can get you 25 to 27 points a game on a consistent basis. Butler isn't all that great of a rebounder either. He played the 3 and didn't glass all that much either. He was about avg for the position.

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Let's look at these numbers.

Steph - 26.8 PPG, 9.4 APG, 8.0 RPG, 2.2 SPG, .619 TS%
Kyrie - 29.4 PPG, 4.4 APG, 4.0 RPG, 1.0 SPG, .558 TS%

I think you're probably the only person who would look at that and say Kyrie's line was better.

And if you really want to get owned in this discussion, we can look up their regular season numbers.\

Kyrie/Butler is a good debate and there's a case to be made for both. There's no debate or comparison between Steph and Kyrie.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

This guy gets it. Good post.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If Wiggins stayed with Cleveland they'd have no rings but more cap space. LBJ GM loses.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You're lying. I said they were comparable and what does it matter since it wasn't head to head.




When they were head to head previous season Irving destroyed him. That is what matters. Curry merely played better. You have been consistently lying that he owned him.

Again it's difficult to assess it when his scary checked JR. The entire series. once that happens it makes no sense to discuss who played better.

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Again does anyone care to discuss what they thought of Butler at 22? How about 24? Did they think of him as some ultratalented guy with major upside?

Let's look at Jimmy Butler's career after 3 years in and compare them to Wiggins. Mind you he was 3 years older than Wiggins after 3 seasons.

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Luol Deng

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GO BEARS!!!

I've tried to educate you on this in the past but it doesn't hold. GS plays a defensive system that relies on defensive switching more than any team in the league. This is effective and makes them consistently one of the best defensive teams in the league every season. They do this because virtually everyone on the team is a versatile defender who can disrupt passing lanes, including Steph Curry. With Klay Thompson being one of the best defenders in the league, it would make sense for him to start out on Kyrie, but Steph switched on to him plenty of times and ended up guarding him on roughly 30% of Cleveland's plays in that series.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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Well, again, this is an entirely different argument than who is better right now between Wiggins and Butler. I've already said multiple times I was wrong on Butler and never thought he would be this good, even during his breakout season.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I imagine JLN and LTG are guys that bring up arguments from the 5th grade because they just can't let shit go. This is one of the most unnecessary debates in the history of debates.

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GO BEARS!!!