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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Right, and also Kobe never won an MVP, and Nash 2, so Nash must be infinitely better

Trophies and hardware are pretty arbitrary in a lot of cases


I dont know... Dirk was clearly the best player in the NBA last season.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:20 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Right, and also Kobe never won an MVP, and Nash 2, so Nash must be infinitely better

Trophies and hardware are pretty arbitrary in a lot of cases

Regular season you are correct, but in most cases the MVP of the finals is the best player on the winning team, except in the case of Tony Parker which had more to do with Duncan already winning three in my opinion.

I guess I just remember the Lakers dynasty different. Kobe was always the second biggest worry of the defense and Shaq was always the primary concern.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:27 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Right, and also Kobe never won an MVP, and Nash 2, so Nash must be infinitely better

Trophies and hardware are pretty arbitrary in a lot of cases


I dont know... Dirk was clearly the best player in the NBA last season.


A lot of good that did him in the 1st round :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:35 pm 
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Nas wrote:
When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in the Finals who was the only player to show up?


Besides Game 2 I dont feel Kobe left an imprint on that series at all. A pretty one sided affair. But yes, Shaq did not even remotely show up. You could tell Ben Wallace wanted him. (Remember when players were scared of Ben Wallace? :shock: )

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:41 pm 
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BTW Nas... how about Nellie benching your boy BD in the second half of a must win game? Now I understand where Avery gets the whole "Bench your star PG with the game on the line" philosophy.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:44 pm 
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Shaq's playoff stats for the three titles:
PPG FTM FTA FTP RPG AST APG STL BLK TO
00: 30.7 135 296 .456 15.4 71 3.1 13 55 56
01: 30.4 105 200 .525 15.4 51 3.2 7 38 57
02: 28.5 135 208 .649 12.6 54 2.8 10 48 62

Kobe's playoff stats for the three titles:
PPG FTM FTA FTP RPG AST APG STL BLK TO
00: 21.1 95 126 .754 4.5 97 4.4 32 32 55
01: 29.4 124 151 .821 7.3 97 6.1 25 12 51
02: 26.6 110 145 .759 5.8 87 4.6 27 17 54

Popularity contest?
Shaq scored more. Shaq drew fouls more and made a similar amount of free throws(at a lower percentage). He obviously rebounded more and on the level of some of the greatest players in history.
The rest of the statistics are a slight edge to Kobe(blocks cancel out steals and he wins on assists).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Nellie might lose his job because of that. No way BD is coming back now. Personal feelings should never go before winning. "I was giving him a much need rest." is a comment that gets you fired and makes guys not want to play for you. Benching Stephen Jackson in the 2nd quarter was equally stupid.


I disagree with the Jackson benching. He came out absolutely on fire in the 3rd. Benching for a quarter or so can be very motivational, and the 2nd was the time to do it. You dont bench Baron, one of the more clutch players in the league, for the whole 2nd half. If you want to send a message to him you leave him on the bench for 6-8 minutes in the 3rd, possibly the whole quarter, then bring him back in for the 4th.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:48 pm 
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I'm not so sure Baron opts out, despite any ill will. He is due to be paid a ton of money and like most potential free agents there aren't too many teams that can pay him as much. As usual, money will talk

Like Marion, watch if he opts out....I doubt it


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:50 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Right, and also Kobe never won an MVP, and Nash 2, so Nash must be infinitely better

Trophies and hardware are pretty arbitrary in a lot of cases

Regular season you are correct, but in most cases the MVP of the finals is the best player on the winning team, except in the case of Tony Parker which had more to do with Duncan already winning three in my opinion.

I guess I just remember the Lakers dynasty different. Kobe was always the second biggest worry of the defense and Shaq was always the primary concern.


Rick what player did you see take over most of the games in the 4th quarter? When the Lakers were losing to Portland what player took over? When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in the Finals who was the only player to show up? It's a fact that when the game was on the line Kobe consistently made plays.

So to prove your point you bring up a series the Lakers lost and another one that they nearly lost. I'm not going to give Kobe credit for being the better player in a series where they were dominated. In fact, that series goes to show how valuable Shaq was. The team went down in flames on his back.

Kobe had some very good fourth quarter performances, but you can't just pull out one or two small examples and it makes him better. Over the length of a series, Shaq had a much greater impact.

Defenses may have worried about Kobe taking the last shot. Defenses worried about Shaq taking any shot.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Bagels wrote:
I'm not so sure Baron opts out, despite any ill will. He is due to be paid a ton of money and like most potential free agents there aren't too many teams that can pay him as much. As usual, money will talk

Like Marion, watch if he opts out....I doubt it


I was thinking the same thing but his contract is just for one year. He would tear it up if he could get a 5 or 6 year deal. This is a guy that has battled injuries his entire career.


But conveniently played every game in time for his big payday. Must have a little bit of Dampier in him :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Just remember what I said when the season starts(of course I won't let anyone forget :wink: ). I don't believe Utah is the real deal.


Is this the part you were right on? ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:17 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Bagels wrote:
I'm not so sure Baron opts out, despite any ill will. He is due to be paid a ton of money and like most potential free agents there aren't too many teams that can pay him as much. As usual, money will talk

Like Marion, watch if he opts out....I doubt it


I was thinking the same thing but his contract is just for one year. He would tear it up if he could get a 5 or 6 year deal. This is a guy that has battled injuries his entire career.


But conveniently played every game in time for his big payday. Must have a little bit of Dampier in him :wink:


Right, but who is going to be that crazy (Isiah is gone) to give Baron a 5 or 6 year deal at big time money? NO ONE can possibly be that dumb, even in the NBA. I give him 2, MAYBE 3 more years at his current production before he starts heavily fading.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Yes and no. What I changed the title of the tread to is what I'm talking about but I do think the Jazz will go fishing in the first round.


I'd maybe rethink that Nas- right now they're matched up against the Rockets :lol:

I'd wager McGrady is going to be the one going fishing


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:19 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Yes and no. What I changed the title of the tread to is what I'm talking about but I do think the Jazz will go fishing in the first round.

Not if they play Houston. I see that being a good matchup for them.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:19 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Bagels wrote:
I'm not so sure Baron opts out, despite any ill will. He is due to be paid a ton of money and like most potential free agents there aren't too many teams that can pay him as much. As usual, money will talk

Like Marion, watch if he opts out....I doubt it


I was thinking the same thing but his contract is just for one year. He would tear it up if he could get a 5 or 6 year deal. This is a guy that has battled injuries his entire career.


But conveniently played every game in time for his big payday. Must have a little bit of Dampier in him :wink:


Right, but who is going to be that crazy (Isiah is gone) to give Baron a 5 or 6 year deal at big time money? NO ONE can possibly be that dumb, even in the NBA. I give him 2, MAYBE 3 more years at his current production before he starts heavily fading.


True, now that Billy King and Isiah are gone, it will be tougher, but where theres a will there's a way. Chris Wallace is still around and should have enough cap room to pay Baron or Marion $120M, which would be the funniest moment of the summer for me I think.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Houston is not as terrible as everyone thinks, but unfortunately Utah is a horrible matchup for them. Still, to win 54 games in the West is impressive, and Utah is horrendous on the road. I think it will be a series, like last year, but I dont see Houston advancing either.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Nas wrote:
That's still top 5 PG level. No one has ever questioned (except Favre Fan) that BD was one of the best PG's in the game when healthy. That was his issue coming out of college and still is. Some team will give him a 4 year deal. I wouldn't mind him and Kirk trading places in a sign and trade deal.


Bullshit Nas. You said he was better than Chris Paul. He clearly is not. I think he is on the level of Deron Williams and Steve Nash though. I can see an argument for him being 2nd.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I'm going to continue to hold onto my argument that Paul has only been the best PG this season and that it takes more than 1 season to be the best at something. Of course that argument will be useless next season but for now I will continue to use it. :wink:


Thats fine. I think we both agree we definitely need to see him in the playoffs. A first round exit would be disastrous. If he gets to the 2nd round, then Ill be satisfied, although I'd like to see him in the West Finals.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:39 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Nas wrote:
Yes and no. What I changed the title of the tread to is what I'm talking about but I do think the Jazz will go fishing in the first round.


I'd maybe rethink that Nas- right now they're matched up against the Rockets :lol:

I'd wager McGrady is going to be the one going fishing


He has to win one. If they drop to 6 that will change.


He might have had a chance had Yao still been there


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