I was thinking maybe LeBron vs Hakeem.

All time great all around players that were able to sneak a few titles in while the league was transitioning between other more dominant teams.

_________________
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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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Today's LeBron effort is the difference ...like he quit....no getting back on D.....crying to the refs...not doing the little things ...he could have left at the half

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

It was only one game, but not a good look to get blown out by a team missing it's best two players. He was also called out by Morris, who called himself a Lebron stopper.

I think it's about sealed that Lebron is leaving again. I don't think he wants to stick around with this bunch in Cleveland to face Kyrie and a more loaded Celtics team next year.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

I still don't get LBJ's"influence" over the way the league operates. During the past seven years the only star players to join other stars on teams via free agency are LBJ himself and Durant. I don't think that constitutes LBJ establishing a model or something. And one cannot definitively say that had The Decision not happened then Durant would have never went to GS.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

And this is what turns up when you google Jordan Stopper.


Forgettable evening for Jordan stopper
MITCHELL KRUGEL May 12, 1993

Hey Gerald, stop with this talk
CHICAGO -- Craig Ehlo laughs when he hears the term "Jordan stopper."
It's a joke, right. At least that's what Ehlo thinks. He laughs again, then
confirms what we all believe: "Hey, nobody ever stops Michael Jordan."
Alas, Ehlo's Cleveland teammate, Gerald Wilkins, flaunted such a moniker on
his chest coming into Chicago Stadium Tuesday night. Seems Wilkins gained such
a reputation when he manhandled Jordan in the playoffs last year while a member
of the New York Knicks. Remember Game 7 of last year's Eastern Conference
semifinals when Wilkins stopped Jordan? Held him to 42 points, didn't he?
Wilkins again proclaimed himself a Jordan stopper Sunday after the Cavaliers
dispatched New Jersey in the first round of the 1993 playoffs. Maybe checking
Drazen Petrovic grants you license to set your sights on Jordan.

As the Eastern Conference semis commenced with a 91-84 victory for Team
Jordan, MJ found the last laugh there for his making. Jordan scored 43
acrobatic points, including 16 in the fourth quarter on 5-for-7 shooting.
In the ultimate test of focus and concentration, he went 11-for-11 from the
foul line.

"Looks like the Jordan stopper had a tough night," MJ mused. "They made a
major factor that Gerald Wilkins was here for one reason and that was to guard
me.

"Well, when I am at my best, I don't there's anybody who can guard me."
For now, we can laugh at Wilkins and make him explain what exactly is a
Jordan stopper?

Must have something to do with holding MJ to 42. Say this for Wilkins: At
least Jordan only went one (point) better on him than the last time the two
squared off in the playoffs.

We can assume a Jordan stopper must be like a ghostbuster. Strap on the
protective gear, use some cosmic ray and zap Jordan into a state of normalcy.
Then he "only" scores 42.

Who you gonna call when you need to find out about this stop stuff? It is
best to consult an expert. Ehlo of course qualifies. He once held Michael to a
career-high 69 points.

The man in the know on this night, however, is the Bulls' Darrell Walker.
Walker had been a designated Jordan stopper for the better part of 10 years
now. He also has to guard Jordan every day in practice.

His opinion:
"This is a guy who has averaged 34, 35 points a game over his whole career,"
Walker asserts. "There haven't been too many stoppers."
So what can Wilkins say now?

Jordan not only went off for 43, but he did it when the only other semblance
of offense from the Bulls came courtesy of Stacey King. And that was all of
nine points.

Scottie Pippen went AWOL. Horace Grant went down with a sprained ankle. B.J.
Armstrong went into a shooting funk. Jordan hit 16-for-30 and it was clear
where the motivation came from.

"I think his effort was aimed at me," Wilkins said. "Those shots were going
in, and that's just the way it is. How many times he can beat us like that? I
don't know."

After giving up 85 points to MJ in the last two playoff games, Wilkins
stumbled upon a revelation.

"Why he calls me a Jordan stopper, I don't know."
Neither do I.

Wilkins did come off the bench _ the only safe place when you're a
self-proclaimed Jordan stopper _ at the 6:29 mark of the first quarter Tuesday
night and backed up his proclamation. Jordan had four points at the time. He
didn't score again until the 52.4 mark on a running jump shot. Jordan hit two
of seven shots against Wilkins in the opening period.
Then in 5:21 of the second quarter Jordan spooked Wilkins with 11 points on
a series of inside-out moves. By the midpoint of the fourth quarter, Jordan
leaned in, faded out and jitterbugged his way to 12 of the Bulls first 15 in
the final period.

Be fair to Wilkins. This was one of those nights when Jordan had a little
something extra, a night when he dribbled, drove and jumped over four Cavs to a
layup. He stumbled and still hit 20-foot fallaway jumpers.
Maybe Wilkins should have known what was coming when Jordan dismissed the
issue Monday. He considered all the Jordan stoppers in the league, tried to
pick the best and said the only one who can stay with him is, "my shadow."
Wilkins stayed with him at times. He was right there with Jordan's shadow.
Hey, he held Michael to 43.

I remember that Jersey/Cleveland series. I remember Derrick Coleman going through a thing against Cleveland but they lost. Chuck Daly referred to him as one of the "top five" talents or players in the game prior to that series and in that series he looked like it.

_________________

I remember one game back in 89 or 90 against the Pistons. Pippen was still experiencing growing pains and Horace was out or something. Pistons were chomping at the bit to slay the Bulls given the conditions. It was a cold ass night in Detroit, one of the coldest ever recorded in the Midwest at the time. On top of that the heating in the Bulls locker room "broke down". The Pistons facilities staff were obvious culprits. Ahmad Rashad reported that the Bulls training staff prohibited Jordan from playing in the game because he had come down with acute pneumonia due to the severity of the cold that night, and that there was a 97.4% chance that he could die Jordan apparently looked the team doctor in the eye and told him he'd kill his whole family if he wasn't allowed to play. Jordan was cleared to play the next minute.

The game started slowly. Rick Mahorn was playing with a concealed shiv that night but still couldn't slow Jordan's ferocious attacks on the rim. As the game progressed it became apparent that this was a 1 vs 5 game, and it was the 5 that were overmatched. During one drive Mahorn stuck the shiv straight into Jordan's gut but that still didn't prevent a 360 dunk plus an and one. Laimbeer shattered Jordan's eye socket with a violent punch during the middle of a dribble drive. Jordan still hung a reverse dunk on his ass while simultaneously hitting a contested three from half court.

On the game-deciding possession, Rodman and Sally pumped Jordan full with bullets from semiautomatic guns that they had been playing with that night. Jordan still hit the J as time expired and stared them down with his remaining eye as he walked off the court. It was a different time. No way that era compares to this one.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

This isn't a revisionist article though or LTG dropping names no one has heard of. This was written in 1993.

The blurb about his teammates was just a nice added touch.

I'm interested to see how he fares against Boston. They have good/very good/elite defenders. I think Stevens will be content to guard him one on one for the most part.

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It is no ones fault that NBA basketball for some people began in the late 90's.

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I saw this on another site.

Is the gap larger between Jordan and Lebron or between Lebron and Steph Curry?

Steph Curry does things on a basketball floor that Lebron can't, has a much higher efg%, and assists are pretty close. Steals are close, and blocks are effectively meaningless for both. That means the major advantage Lebron has is rebounds. Steph probably ties up total titles with him at 3 too. Lebron does have a scoring average lead but the past 5 seasons have been pretty close on that too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

To me, this kind of sums up why this conversation is so difficult to have. Are we debating who has the best career accomplishments? If that is the case, Jordan clearly wins out right now, and LeBron would be way ahead of someone like Steph Curry (Curry wouldn’t even be in the conversation, IMO).

But if we’re talking about which player in their prime was the best player, it’s very tough to compare, and the margin is so slim between, say, the top ten players to ever play, that it’s hard to pick just one. The eras also make it nearly impossible. Steph Curry undoubtedly would have had a harder time with 90s rules, but many players from past eras wouldn’t be as dominant in today’s game dominated by floor spacing, pick and rolls, and three point specialists.

The debate usually becomes some sort of hybrid between those two criteria, but I think they are two very different ways of looking at it.

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I agree with a lot of this but I’m me so I’m gonna say the gap between Steph and LeBron is larger and it’s really not close. And I think I’ve praised curry as much as anyone on this board.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Oops. I meant Lebron had the scoring average lead. Boilermaker Rick regrets the error.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

LeBron the last couple years and Jordan in the 90’s just broke entire teams. It almost didn’t matter what their numbers or teammates were.

I’m sure an advanced stat case can be made for Steph being relatively close to LeBron but he doesn’t have that. He may not ever have that.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

How do you agree? You argument for MJ over LBJ is about rings, which is a team accomplishment. Rings are the products of transactions at the GM level in addition to individual greatness. If you strip team accomplishments away then what is your argument for Jordan and against LBJ?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

He was a more dominant scorer and defender. Like Turd said, we probably won’t see a 10 year run of undisputed best scorer in the league and all nba first team defense ever again. This combination allowed him to dominate in a way leBron hasn’t been able to as consistently.

You can credit Krause for the rings all you want but then you have to address his post-MJ career.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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"Dominate" is an implicit reference to rings. I don't think being known as the best scorer and a top defender are as unique as you're saying they are.

I don't have to address Krause post-MJ career because their relationship was a symbiotic one: neither would be as successful without the other. That's the case for anyone with a long list of team accomplishments. MJ's legacy seems tied to his team accomplishments which obscures the extent to which his legendary status rests as much on the shoulders of people like Krause and PJ as it does on his own individual greatness. Without that help I'm not sure if we're as confident in the MJ as GOAT arguments as we are today.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Name another time in history a player had a 9 year run as the best scorer in the league and the best defender at his position. You can’t. It is as unique as I’m saying it is.

You’re just sensitive to the rings argument. Dominate is exactly what it means. If I wanted to mention rings I would have. I think at their best Jordan controlled the game in a more absolute way than LeBron did.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You have it backwards this entire time. It’s not that Jordan is the goat because he won six rings. It’s that the six rings are a byproduct of him being the greatest ever.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Crediting the organization with championships always takes away from what Jordan created in Chicago. I always enjoyed Boers talking about Jordan's early days. The whoa we may have something here time. At what point in his rookie season where the Bulls officially his team?

He set the tone in games, he set the tone in practice. If you couldn't match his expectation he would drive you out of the team. You defied him or crossed him he would punch you in the face. I don't consider these positive attitude traits. Jordan was a psychopath. But this is where I have him separating himself above Lebron.

I think you give Krause far too much credit. He needed Jordan a lot more than Jordan needed him.

If you look at Krause's drafting record there were a number of misses and a number of head scratching moves made at the time.

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The Bulls pre Jordan were saddled with Drug issues. There were a number of guys on that roster who were drug addicts in 82 and 83.

_________________

Wasn’t that like half the league still in the early 80’s?

Cocaine was the glamour drug of the 80’s.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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Late 70's up until early 80's possibly yeah but the better teams didn't seem like they were hit by it as much. I remember Phoenix and The Bulls specifically. Surely there were others but those two stand out.

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No it's not. I addressed this here:

Jordan was a great individual player who owes his championships to Jerry Krause for finding the right talent to surround him. If Krause traded Jordan to the Minnesota Timberwolves in 1989 then "Michael Jordan" as we know him today wouldn't exist. There would be no statue outside the Target Center. You all believe it's the other way around: Jordan was predestined to win regardless of who played with him because he's a god.

There is something messianic about your thesis here. As a matter of history, it ignores virtually all variables that factually led Jordan down the path he took to greatness. Jordan could be as great, have the same stats, and have 0 rings if Krause didn't pull off the moves he made to populate the roster. What if Jordan was traded to Minnesota like I said above? Is he still winning six rings? Historical circumstances and Jordan's individual greatness helped produce those rings - they weren't destined to be just because Jordan was so great.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I think it’s very difficult for you to make an argument Jordan would never have won a title without Krause and Pippen. It ignores the entire history of the league.

Jordan at the time was considered the best player in the world in the 90’s. This isn’t revisionist history. The best player in the league during a given era always wins rings. It’s a sport where one player has significantly more influence on the outcome of a game than any other sport.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

A better GM would have surrounded Jordan with better players. The only guy that was a major get by Krause was Pippen. If you look at his record you see a number of blunders. Jordan was able to win in spite of the mistakes not because of them.

In 85 he passes on Malone for Oakley

in 86 he passes on Dawkins for Brad Sellers

in 88 He passes on Strickland for Will Perdue.

In 89 He Passes on Hardaway For Stacey King.

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VF - I don't think anyone is saying 4 rec league guys and Jordan win a title. Putting him on the expansion wolves in 89 would definitely prevent a title for some time. But I'll still take Jordan on the wolves winning a title before the Bulls do if that deal is done.

I also don't believe you have a HOF Scottie Pippen. His legacy is rooted in being the best number 2 ever. I don't think he has a memorable career if he doesn't have Jordan to take the lead from.

If you want hypotheticals, let's play Jordan forced his way to the Orlando Magic in 1996. My money is on Shaq, Penny, and Jordan winning a title with any other minimum vets looking for a title.

You're overvaluing defense. Jordan was a great individual defender at guard. One player doesn't have the control over that side of the floor like he does on offense. He can score on five guys, but he can't guard five guys. At that time, the closest thing to "dominating" on defense would have had to be a Center. Lebron's no slouch on defense either.

Vegan's point about Jordan's circumstance is a valid one and one that I've voiced for years. It was great for all of us as Bulls fans to see the best player in his sport win rings for the good part of a decade, but it's naïve to think that it was "destined" to happen. Jordan arrived at the right time. He was coming of age as Magic and Bird, who had saved the NBA, were declining. But Jordan had no counterpart - it was just him. As a young player, he was an unreal scorer who couldn't get over the hump and then finally did once he got the players he needed around him. Then there was the retirement, the comeback (including even better talent around him when he returned, thanks to Krause), and three more rings. His career was like a Disney movie. You couldn't write a better script. But if you took Michael Jordan and plopped him back in the '84 draft with the talent he had, that exact storybook career doesn't play out on the next billion tries.

And with all that said, we are all glad it did happen that way, of course. The problem is that it has caused him to be deified, and people seem to remember him shooting 100% from the field and winning the NBA championship every year of his career. Struggling to win as a team in the '80's and being labeled as a guy who could score but not win is forgotten. Poor shooting performances in the playoffs are forgotten. Losing to Orlando in '95 is forgotten. Magic Johnson saying in '92 on the Dream Team that Scottie Pippen was the best player in the world is forgotten. Playing on a team with THREE OTHER all NBA defensive players for the last three rings isn't mentioned. And I'm not saying that those things somehow make him bad or even not the GOAT; but he was not God. In addition to being a freakish talent, he was also the benefactor of circumstance.

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