Well...?

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I'd keep him out just for bailing on his team during a playoff run to go to rehab. He couldn't stay on the sauce for a few extra weeks?

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No

That sure doesn't look good. But he's got the Ks and he keeps winning games.

CC should end up with better numbers than Morris and they finally allowed Morris in--250 is the new 300. 3 rings for Morris to 1 for CC, but it's baseball. Morris might've gotten in on the actual baseball writers balloting if he hadn't been standoff-ish with media during his playing days. e.g., George Will wanted Morris for 'Men At Work' but Jack refused and so Will went with Hershiser.

Yes. An unquestioned ACE for over a decade. It's what will lead the push for Sale in 5 years.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Initial thought is yes but I haven’t looked at his numbers in a long time. The modern day pitching numbers just don’t mesh with the old ones with how quickly pitchers are pulled so I suppose they don’t jump off the screen.

This debate isn't definitive until JORR weighs in.

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No

Needs another 20 wins and I doubt he gets it.

_________________
Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

The answer is an easy yes. Come the fuck on. He's first ballot.

Yup

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I'd question a decade, more like six or seven years. He'll probably get in though, but I don't know I would say first ballot. He'll get like 60% the first year. If he doesn't get in, I guess he'll take his $252 million dollars and find some solace in that.

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

Yeah he is....tho not a first ballot guy, that is a stretch.

The standard for HOF pitching is going to have to come down a little with the way the game is being played today.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

180 is the new 300

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I would say he's easily a Hall of Famer. The benchmarks for starters have to be adjusted or there will never be a starter in the Hall again.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Probably right. And that is ok. Just like any other differences in eras it can be documented well and correctly and people in the future will know why CC and Fergie Jenkins can be in the same place. This can also apply to the homer steroid guys.

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Elections have consequences.

Right, but I think you also have to be careful. The fact that front offices/managers choose to use starting pitchers the way they do diminishes their value. I don't think we can extrapolate out like, "Well, look, if this guy had pitched as many innings as Sandy Koufax did in 65-66..." The fact is he wasn't asked to and he didn't. It would be like if some manager decided his best way to win was to use Mike Trout strictly as a pinch hitter. Trout would still be the same guy he is, he just wouldn't have the same accomplishments and wouldn't belong in the Hall of Fame.

Mark Buehrle is a good example. I don't think he's a Hall of Famer, but I guarantee in coming years you will see guys who are equal to or less than Buerhle getting consideration and some of them may even get in.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That's a very good comp. I believe Fergie is the only guy to strike out 3000 while walking less than 1000. C.C. didn't quite do that but he is very close.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Greg Maddux did as well.

absolutely.

great pitcher for a long time. And even in his twilight still serviceable.

he is also a class guy.

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no but very good.

HOFer? Yes. When? I don't know but it better be after Mike Mussina gets in.

Yes...and I'd take him over Mike Mussina any day.

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Not sure what the consensus is on this but I would much rather go with someone like Scherzer for the HOF than Sabathia. While Sabathia will have many more wins, Scherzer already has seasons of WAR of 6.4, 6.9, 7.1, and a currently a 7.1 for this season. Sabathia's highest was 6.4. If he wins the CY Young this year it will give him 3 to Sabathia's 1. Give me a 5 year span of being one of the top 3 pitchers in the game over a lengthy career with a couple great seasons sprinkled in.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

Going forward I think they’re gonna move to a WAR based criteria over a counting stat criteria. The HOF voters and the voting system is in desperate need an overhaul.

Sabathia (and Mussina) had more than a few great seasons, though.

There's also something to be said consistency as a pitcher over 15 or so years. Being able to guarantee 15-19 wins is worth as much as anything else in baseball today.

Scherzer has been pretty dominant, though. If he stays healthy, he'll get there.

When I say great I mean top 5 in the entire league. Sabathia only had 3 seasons with a WAR above 6 and everything else was under 5 with only 2 seasons in the 4-range.

_________________
Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.

But there's a realistic chance he will end up with lower career WAR than Tommy John or Mark Buehrle.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Fuck WAR. I seen 'em pitch.

Identical stats except Mussina has a couple GGs.