The Pistons mail it in so much they should get their own dead letter office.

It's also one of the reasons that some people are turned off by the NBA. Kobe doesn't have the worldwide popularity that Jordan had and that was frustrating to watch.

Might as well hand the Lakers the title. Kirilenko basically had the choice to just give him an open lane to the basket or get a foul.

Next time you are watching a game, and the other team is making a run and the Lakers lead has shrunk to 4-8 points, notice what happens. All of a sudden the other team becomes a bunch of hack artists who foul constantly.

I'm sure MJ got that treatment too, but it doesn't make it right.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No Nas, theres a big difference. I agree Kobe should get the benefit of any doubt, but MJ never used to get those calls, because those calls didnt exist back then. Now the league has become extremely pussified and they call every hand touch foul. MJ would get a call if he took it inside or any time there was alot of contact, but they wouldnt called the defender just for playing him really tight starting at midcourt. They would at least make MJ have to earn his own shot, and then they would usually give him any benefit of doubt after that.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm with FavreFan on this one. Kirilenko, no matter how great of defense he played, was going to get a foul called. It is no coincidence that this happened just at the time that the Jazz were making their run.

Kobe made some amazing plays. That 3 on 1 assist was one of the best plays I've seen in years. I was starting to respect him a little more as he was leading his team well against a good team.

Then I watched as the Utah defenders stood there in disbelief as looking at Kobe became a foul.

If that's what the whole NBA playoffs are going to be, then this will severely limit my interest in them.

Let me make a prediction if the series gets back to LA for a game 5. At some point, in the fourth quarter, the game will be close. Kobe will get just a touch more aggressive and start drawing fouls while driving to the basket, including a continuation. The lead will expand and the Lakers will win.

Utah has no shot of winning a game in LA in this series if what we saw last night is how things are going to be called.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Nas,
Which is it? Is he getting calls because he's a superstar or because you can't body someone on the outside?

That was good defense, at least by Kirilenko. If good tough defense in the fourth quarter isn't allowed in the NBA then I'm going to start caring about it a lot less.

Do you disagree with the fact that as soon as the Jazz got close in the game, that the whistles came out in full force?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Agree to disagree Nas. How can you complain in one thread about missing hard fouls, and now say in this thread that bitch ass touch fouls have always been called? I dont remember them being nearly this stingy with MJ. Yes, its obvious he got calls all the time, many which he shouldnt have. Thats not what Im arguing. Im saying Kobe is getting calls that simply werent called back then. Yes, players were allowed to body bump MJ and play him tightly as long as they didnt hand check him. Like I said, AK was playing fantastic defense last night but the refs did not even give him a chance to stop Kobe.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Just because the perception is that it happened in the past, it doesn't make it right now. Jordan got calls too. Superstars get calls but this ticky tack stuff on the outside is frustrating to watch.

Now I know that Jordan got away with stuff. He had a slight pushoff on that shot over Russel. I'm not tired of that. I grew tired of the fact that yesterday, as soon as someone played tough D, that the whistle blew. I may have been blind to all the times that it happened to Jordan, but I still don't think it was nearly that bad away from the basket. On a drive to the basket, a superstar should get all the calls.

No matter what happened in the past, it's frustrating watching Kobe get helped from the refs even if he clearly didn't need it. There was nothing Kirlilenko could have done, besides let Kobe drive to the basket, without getting a foul. This is an all defensive team player. As soon as he went up to Kobe, you could just tell a foul was coming.

Just wait until game 5, if there is a game 5. The exact same thing in the fourth quarter will happen if it's close.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What we have here... is failure to communicate.

I've already said like three or four times that Kobe is and should be allowed to get away with shit regular players dont. He has earned the benefit of any doubt. Thats not what Im saying. Im saying dont call a foul on someone just for guarding him closely at mid court and trying to get the ball out of his hands. All we are debating is a matter of degree.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don't know why you say that superstars should get the benefit of the calls.

I mean, I can understand you saying that it's acceptable, or that it's beneficial for casual fans' enjoyment and TV ratings because the stars shine more, but that doesn't mean they should get them.

They should get them because they've earned it. They shouldnt get phantom calls, which they do alot of times, like last night with Kobe and AK. But if its unclear or a toss up if its a foul, I think they should get the call over an average player.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

fouls in basketball are much like they are in soccer; they're an art form. and phantom calls are always a part of it...the super stars have earned a leniency on fouls because they've gone through the phantom calls in their career...

it's just the way it is.

i don't know why, but for some reason as a saints fan, it's comforting to see new orleans beating up on san antonio...

Earned what?

If they're a better player, they'll have better output. Making a shot will "earn" them 2 points. I don't see why they need extra help if they're already better.

And non-superstars haven't gone through the phantom calls? Or actually, gone through MORE since they are getting the fouls called on them when they try to guard the star?

And do all long-time veterans get this same benefit, to make up for 10 years of bad calls?

It was absolutely delightful to watch Chris Paul and Tony Parker in the 4th quarter tonight.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

i mean it's not just how good they are either, sometimes it's about the "relationship" they develop with the refs too. it's a weird thing, i'm not saying it's necessarily right...i think fouls can be a maddening part of the game, but they are part of the game. like i said, it's just the way it is.

Yeah I agree that it's the way it is, and there's probably some unavoidable subconscious bias involved.

I don't complain about it, but at the same time I don't think it should be the case, that's what I had an issue with.

Damn KG and the Celtics need to stop talking about how hungry they are for a championship and start acting like it. They have way too much Detroit in them right now, and none of the history to at least explain it.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The hangin' judge came in unnoticed and was being wined and dined,
The drillin' in the wall kept up but no one seemed to pay it any mind.
It was known all around that Lily had Jim's ring
And nothing would ever come between Lily and the king.
No, nothin' ever would except maybe the Jack of Hearts.

If the Celtics somehow win the title, they better not have any highlights from their road playoff games. This is really turning into a joke. 4 road playoff games, and basically all ass kickings.

Oh wow, very nice Zach. A couple of my buddies make fun of me for liking that song since its amidst so many gems on that cd, but it truly displays his ability to tell a story.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

yeah i guess that came from...watching the game (sound off of course ) and was listening to the album, that song came on and that's what came to mind...with alcohol in the belly obviously. but yeah, again, listen to the lyrics, it's a damn fun song. an allegorical romp i like to call it.

Great game in Utah today. A bit disappointed in Kobe jacking threes all 4th quarter when he was clearly able to get good looks in the third in the paint on Brewer. Took him till 1:30 left in the 4th to start doing it again, but he has done a great job of facilitating.

Phil has done an excellent job coaching today, especially calling plays out of timeouts. Seems like they have gotten fantastic looks. Derek Fisher showed up huge, shooting them back in the game today, and playing unbelievable defense on Deron's last shot, and Odom has played fantastic.

Goin to overtime! I love this game! Yes I know Im an NBA dork.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

it's ok. i'm watching too.

At least we got two good series in the West goin. Looks like some possible Game 7s.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

SA is alive....Winner of Game 5 probably wins that series, I think.

Once again the Celtics wet the bed on the road. I don't get how a team can look so damn good at home, and then look just as bad on the road. I think Barkley was right in the pre-game, when he said they don't have a true leader who says I'm going to take this game over and you guys follow. They have 3 star players, but none of them are taking the leadership to kick the team in the ass, and get them going on the road.

Starting to think Garnett might actually be a clubhouse cancer in a strange way

It would be nice if Paul Pierce or Ray Allen showed up for a road game.

I think in a close game, in the 4th quarter, the big 3 should be taking all the shots. Last night Allen had 1, KG 2, and Pierce had 7. For KG and Allen to only have 3 combined shots is a joke. I heard where Rondo had the most 4th quarter shots, that shouldn't be happening. Doc needs to find a way to get them the looks they need.