Always knew you were one of the good ones.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

The Lakers have pulled back on the Lonzo love if you haven't noticed and it is really quite obvious that most people around the league merely think that he is a guy. He hasn't done anything which demonstrates that he will be anything more than a role player at best. Lakers feel the same as Lebron was brought in to replace him and Rondo was brought in as insurance.

As far as Mitchell goes he isn't that special. He exceeded what was expected of him as a rookie and that is good but to think that he is about to rip the league up is a stretch. There are a lot of holes in his game which need to be corrected in order to reach the lofty status that you seem to have reserved for him. In addition you can't assume that he will acquire all of these things with age either. You know special players when you first see them more often than not.


If you are going to use the "in the future" argument as your rationale than I can use the same argument for Cameron Payne also.

_________________

He stunk against Houston which you have yet to ever acknowledge.

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Guys get worse (See Flip Murray) as their career goes. The term "flash in the pan" was created specifically for guys like that.

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LTG running circles around WWN, again.

Flip Murray was good for like a 20 game stretch. It's not comparable to what Mitchell did last year.

Anyway, no use in further arguing before he plays any more games this year. I think he's going to be great, you think he's Dion Waiters/Flip Murray. We aren't even close and we aren't changing eachother's mind so let's just see who ends up being more right. It's why this thread was created.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I can always say that I wasn't really being "serious" can't I?

_________________

You're underrating Ben Gordon, and I suggested Gordon is the floor anyway and not the ceiling. Ben Gordon could drop 20 at his best on any given night. Not bad. Also not useful for much else beyond that 20. Can Mitchell add more value than that?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Of course he can. You should've paid more attention to his progression last year and you would've known the answer to your last question.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I believe in different prototypes of NBA players. FF said he believes this dude is the "first Donovan Mitchell." We've seen an undersized scoring two guard before. If scoring is your only thing as a 6'3 SG then I'm sorry but we've seen you before and your name is either Ben Gordon or Allen Iverson.

Mitchell doesn't get to the line enough or finish in traffic to fit the Iverson prototype. Guys that do are people like Steve Francis, Marbury, etc. He also doesn't make plays like they did. This is why I see him closer to the Gordon prototype, who is more of a scoring specialist rather than a scorer who can also make plays. Yes he can obviously develop but if you're not a playmaker to start with then it's very unlikely you'll develop that later on. I say that because you need vision and superior athleticism at that size to be a truly dangerous playmaker.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Lets look at the Rookie numbers of both. Something tells me Ben's Per 36 were eerily similar if not better.

He also is nowhere near the shooter that Ben was. He is more athletic and has wingspan that all the GMs love. He is closer to Ben Gordon than you might think.

_________________

Vegan thinks Mitchell doesn't finish in traffic well

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

His "progression" involved scoring and nothing else. You said he was a point guard but after the Houston series the best response for that is "oops".

_________________

He's much closer to Oladipo than Flip Murray, Dion Waiters, and Ben Gordon. You guys are bad at comps.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I never said he was a PG. I said he played the position well after being forced into it with Rubio's injury. That is true and most analysts were saying the same thing.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Which analyst said that? He played the position during the Houston series and he struggled mightily and the numbers, eyetest or whatever you want to look at supports that.

_________________

Kenny Smith on TNT said it and it was a common talking point among NBA analysts after the game 2 win where he had 11 assists.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Even his playoff #s are overhyped. 22 shots to avg 24 points on 42% shooting 31% from 3.

4 assists with 3 turnovers per game is playing well?

He is a volume chucker and little else.

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That was an outlier though. His assists numbers weren't that great avg wise. He struggled at the point for the most part.

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He was playing out of position and had Houston's entire defense solely focused on taking him out of the game. And he was a rookie. And he still averaged 6 apg and won a game against the number 1 seed in the conference. Not too bad.

I agree with you and vegan that if he never improves he won't be very good. Strong take.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Great players beat stacked defenses.

On one hand you have already anointed him as that dude hence this thread and on the other hand you seem to be playing the still just a rookie card.

He has a ways to go before you can place him in the class of the truly elite. Joel Embiid was referred to last night as "the best center in the game" by Reggie Miller. He has only played in about 20 more regular season games than Mitchell.

That is what a great young player looks like. Not Mitchell.

_________________

That's because I realize those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Do you think Ben Simmons is already a very good player and will be a great player? Do you believe he looked like shit against Boston in the playoffs last year? My answer to both those questions is yes. And Mitchell never scored 1 fuckin point in an entire playoff game.

You're going over the top in your hate of Mitchell simply because I think he's really good, and it's going to cause you to look foolish. Flip Murray

For the record, I believe Zeph had reasonable reservations in his initial comment in this thread, and he was still able to acknowledge how good Mitchell was last year and how far past reasonable you and vegan are going in your criticisms.

Sucks we gotta wait two more hours for the Jazz Kings game. You seem as pumped as I am for it to start.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You were overboard in your effusive praise of Simmons last season too.

As far as Flip Murray goes i am half way joking but i am trying to provide a little perspective. I am not the one saying things like "he's awesome". He is a good player but he isn't a special player and saying things like he is special while simultaneously tempering it with comments like he ain't yet but could be later is contradictory and just a means of kicking the proverbial can down the road.

_________________

Answer the questions

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm being very respectful of Mitchell here. I ain't the one bringing up Flip Murray so don't go there.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I dunno man. A better Ben Gordon is pretty vague and doesn't sound complimentary. Also, his one elite skill is driving and finishing. Even LTG acknowledged that last year. Not sure you've been too fair in pigeonholing Mitchell into a specific type of complimentary player.

We'll find out a lot more this season though. One of the many reasons Im not a "skip to the conference finals" NBA fan

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

When I mention Gordon I'm referring to his best years. I'm definitely a skip to the conference finals person until the league contracts about seven to ten teams. That will make the playoffs about 200% more enjoyable.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY