deGrom allowed 17 earned runs over his 9 losses, Price allowed 35 earned over his 7 losses. The Mets scored a total of 13 runs in deGrom’s nine losses, the Red Sox scored a total of 22 runs over Price’s seven losses.

deGrom allowed 18 fewer runs but has two more losses than Price. The Red Sox scored 9 more runs in two fewer losses.

1.89 earned runs allowed by deGrom per Mets loss
1.44 runs scored by Mets per deGrom loss

5 earned runs allowed by Price per Red Sox loss
3.14 runs scored by Red Sox per Price loss

Plug deGrom in for Price on those days and the Red Sox are flirting with the 1906 Chicago Cubs win record.


*yes, these numbers are skewed because deGrom wasn't facing a DH. Thank you for pointing that out.

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I don't think that could ever really happen. But it's not like the Mets had the kind of atrocious offense that Seattle did when the King won with a 13-12 record and the Mariners averaged 2 runs per game less than several teams. The Mets didn't have a great offense but it wasn't dreadful, just a little below an average. Yet pitchers on teams with offenses similar to the Mets and sometimes worse (look at his record vs. the Marlins) often pitched better than he did in the games they were both in. I'm not saying deGrom had a bad year. I just don't think he deserves a Cy Young award.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

This is the argument in a nutshell. You -and many others- believe that stats created in one game are somehow transferable to another. It would be like a weekend golfer shooting a 78 on a course where Tiger Woods once shot an 82 and saying he beat Tiger Woods once.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

They have, but I would argue they shouldn't.

It's the Cy Young award, not the Ed Walsh award or the Mariano Rivera award.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Would you rather have 2018 deGrom pitching for the White Sox or 2018 David Price?

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I didn't really intend to make it a one-to-one comparison. Over the course of a season, I'd argue that deGrom would give a team a better chance than Price to win on the days he pitched. Just like I'd say Tiger Woods has a better shot of putting up a better score than a weekend golfer over the course of a tournament.

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That isn't what we're discussing.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That may be the case, but it didn't work out that way in 2018, did it? There were a whole bunch of guys who you would undoubtedly argue aren't as good as David Price- let alone Jacob deGrom- who actually did give their team a better chance to win the same game deGrom was trying to give his team a chance to win.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

All offenses are not equal or close to equal regardless of what the WIN-LOSS Lobby would have you believe

This is the Quintana / Samardzija argument redux.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

They're just not different within the minute space of a single game. And the best average offense in the game when facing Jake deGrom is likely worse than the worst average offense in the game when facing Tyler Chatwood.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

TBH, I more perplexed by why this continues to be about W-L. The real argument is this....are offenses essentially equal?

I think trying to get 18-21 outs against Mookie and the Sawx is a lot more difficult and stressful than against Conforto and the Amazin's

Well, let's leave AL teams that have an extra hitter out of it. The Cubs averaged 4.66 runs per game. I assume you would say this is a "good" offense. It's better than average in the NL. The Mets averaged 4.17 runs per game. Is that a "bad" offense? Maybe. But in any case, that .49 run average isn't something that manifests itself in a single game. And if we're talking about a potential Cy Young winner facing the 4.66 rpg offense vs. Jake Drake facing the 4.17 rpg offense, I think to be worthy of being Cy Young, the guy facing the 4.66 offense should be able to win quite a bit more than half the time.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That has to be a bit.

Break it down further. its not just runs scored. It's stressful pitches. The amount of effort and precision required to retire Anthony Rizzo is a lot more than Austin Jackson.
Also, they averaged 3.50 runs in his starts.

In 21 starts...they scored 3 or less

It's like taking a math test and getting full credit because the process was correct while the answer is wrong

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Actually it's more like a group project where DeGrom did excellent on his portion but the other losers dropped the ball on their parts of the project.

Right, because Jake Drakes pitched better than he did. Or don't their efforts count? Maybe one of them should be Cy Young.

But to your point about Rizzo vs. Jackson, of course that's correct. But every team has a player at least as good as Rizzo. And Jackson's best game is better than Rizzo's average game.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Hawk way ahead of the times

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

These are some wild ass splits in deGrom's nine losses:

Pitchers

Masahiro Tanaka 5ip 1er Jacob deGrom 8ip 2er
Jonathan Holder 1ip 0 er Paul Sewald 1ip 1er
Chad Green (W) 1ip 0er
Dellin Beances 1ip 0er
Aroldis Chapman 1ip 0er

Mike Soroka (W) 6.1ip 0er Jacob deGrom 7ip 1er
AJ Minter .2ip 0er Jerry Blevins 1ip 1er
Dan Winkler 1ip 0er
Arodys Vizcaino 1ip 0er

Clayton Kershaw 3ip 2er Jacob deGrom 6ip 3er
Caleb Ferguson (W) 4ip 0er Robert Gsellman 2ip 5er
Yimi Garcia 1ip 1er Drew Smith 1ip 0er
Edward Paredes 1ip 0er

Pablo Lopez (W) 6ip 2er Jacob deGrom 6ip 3er
Adam Conley 1 ip 0er Robert Gzellman 1ip 0er
Drew Steckenrider 1ip 0er Anthony Swarzak 1ip 0er
Kyle Barrclough 1ip 0er

Joey Lucchesi (W) 5.1ip 2er Jacob deGrom 8ip 2er
Craig Stammen 1.2 ip 0er Robert Gsellman 1ip 0er
Phil Maton 1ip 0er
Kirby Yates 1ip 0er

Trevor Williams (W) 6ip 0er Jacob deGrom 7ip 3er
Edgar Santana 1ip 0er Robert Gsellman 1ip 2er
Kyle Crick 1 ip 0er
Richard Rodgriguez 1ip 0er

Anibal Sanchez (W) 6ip 1er Jacob deGrom 8ip 2er
Dan Winkler 1ip 0er Anthony Swarzak 1ip 0er
Jesse Biddle 1 ip 0er
AJ Minter 1ip 0er

Madison Bumgarner (W) 8ip 1er Jacob deGrom 6ip 1er
Will Smith 1ip 0er Tyler Bashlor 2ip 1er
Drew Smith 1ip 0er

Jose Urena (W) 6.1ip 1er Jacob deGrom 7ip 2er
Adam Conley 1.2 ip 0er Anthony Swarzak 1ip 1er
Drew Steckenrider 1ip 2er Robert Gsellman 1ip 2er


Starters deGrom
Total IP -- 53 Total IP - 63
Ave IP – 5.68 Ave. 7ip
Total ER – 10 Total ER – 19
ERA – 1.70 ERA – 2.71

Relievers Relievers
Total IP – 28 Total IP – 15
Ave IP – 3.94 Ave IP – 1.44
Total ER – 3 Total ER – 13
ERA – 0.97 ERA – 7.80

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Joey Lucchesi (W) 5.1ip 2er Jacob deGrom 8ip 2er

How does that work?

EDIT: I just realized there had to be unearned runs. But the idea that pitchers lack all responsibility for unearned runs is specious itself.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The relievers splits are more telling for me. Opposing relievers pitched nearly twice as many innings as Mets relievers but allowed 10 fewer runs.

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That's like you hear, a starting pitcher shouldn't be MVP because they don't play everyday and a relief pitcher shouldn't win Cy Young because they just have to usually get 3 outs, then checking to make sure, Dennis Eckersely in 1992 won AL MVP, how dominant was he that year or was everyone in the AL bad that year

Well, my argument against pitchers being MVP wouldn't be that they aren't as valuable as everyday players- because the best are certainly more valuable- but rather that they have their own award. If you look at an MVP-type pitcher and assume he averaged 7 innings per game over his 33 starts, that's 693 outs covered, well more than most batters' plate appearances.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'd rather they didn't. No one ever gave Best Picture to a newsreel.

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Both TK and MW are the same level of ...bland.....not sure how one can be rated below the other.

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