Mack, Jackson, Cohen (PR) and Fuller


Well done.

Mack should have been unanimous.

Took a month off in the middle of the season. Bad form. Antonio Brown-esque.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I thought maybe Hicks would be second team but no.

No Hicks is trash. I’d pick him over Fuller.

Aaron Donald
Fletcher Cox

Chris Jones
JJ Watt


is Hicks better than any of them?

It's really only Cox vs Hicks. Cox says the Eagles D will dominate Sunday. Guess we'll get to see for ourselves.

I like Hicks to have a huge game.

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Right now he is better than Jones and Cox imo. He was dominant last year too without Mack on the team.


Terrible snub. He’s our 2nd best player on defense behind Mack.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Probably not. Seems right he was left off.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What's the case that Hicks is a better player this season than Chris Jones? I'd like to hear this.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

For starters.. inflated stats due to playing against teams always playing from behind. I think his insane jump in the sack numbers supports this too.


Also, just watching both play. They’re both good but Hicks is better and makes more of an impact on his defense than Jones does on his. Kc’s defense gives up a lot.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Ok. Yeah, we both agree that Jones production dwarfs Hicks, I guess we just disagree on the eye test. Jones is every bit as physical and dominant as Hicks and pops off the screen as much, if not more. I don't really think it was a tough call between the two for All Pro.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Parkey got robbed.

_________________

Jones was a my guy in the draft a few years ago. He is better than Hicks but then again, he is probably a top five DL right now.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Hopefully he got stabbed in the leg too.

_________________

No, we do not. Jones has less tackles than Hicks, less/same pass deflections, less forced fumbles, only three more tackles for loss.. and he is on the field almost twice as much as Hicks. His overall production does not 'dwarf' Hicks.


Context matters here, and stats don't tell the whole story anyway. His (Jones) QB hits and Sacks are larger in number than Hicks but so are his opportunities to compile those stats.. (for example) According to ESPN the Bears faced 278 (lowest in the league) 1st down plays this year to KC's whopping (and dead last) 419. How many of those were pass plays you ask?


186 against the Bears
247 against KC


And that's just 1st downs. Nah, Jones got in on accumulated stats via Sacks and QB hits playing on a terrible defense that gets to pin its ears back almost every play. Meanwhile, in far less opportunities Hicks bested him or came really close in almost every other category. And, he has been consistently good/dominant for 3 seasons in a row now (two of those without Mack taking pressure off of him). The same can't be said for Jones (who's only been in the league for 3 seasons to be fair).


Jones isn't a better player than Hicks. He just gets way more opportunities to fool people into believing he is via inflated stats.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Two things here..

1. (not sure if you meant Hicks is also top 5, the way you worded that is odd so..) Hicks is also a top 5 guy too right now, just hasn't been getting the recognition he most likely deserves.

2. Jones has 1 year of sack production over Hicks and that is literally it. And he's had way more opportunities (see above post) to accumulate those stats. Hicks has been this good for 3 years in a row now. 2 of those years without the benefit of a guy like Mack taking away potential double teams.

Jones is closer to being a paper Tiger than Hicks because Hicks has proven over years now he can perform.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

NME is an outstanding football poster.

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FF should have went with asking me why I thought Hicks is better than Fletcher Cox.. that's a much more difficult argument to make.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

He has twice as many sacks tackles for a loss and QB hits. If you think their production is close you arent capable of looking at this objectively, which is what I suspected.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If Jones was any good, his defense wouldn't be the laughing stock of the NFL. /Thread.

Dolphin is a huge homer who has let his meatball flag fly at great heights this year, but I appreciate that he even acknowledges the obvious on this one, Jones was better than Hicks this season.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Following this logic Mack was not good before this year.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Wrong. The Oakland defense was 20th in the NFL last year...not great but not near the worst. This year, without Mack, they have plummeted to 32nd(PPG). Mack was that good he propped them up. Thanks for playing and go home and get your shine box.

Yes, and without Jones KC would be much worse as well.

I thought you learned your lesson when it came to football Bob. Listen to the guys who watch the games like dolphin and I.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I have watched every Chiefs game this season. Jones has been a stud. He is very deserving of all pro. Hicks has way more around him. Hicks has been great and deserves an all pro award as well, but he also benefits from having some other studs to get the attention of offenses. Jones is pretty much it for the Chiefs.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Sounds like we’re bus tossing Cox

Eaglo, speak now or forever hold your peace.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

By flat out ignoring the context of why his sack numbers are higher (amount of opportunities), and that other areas of his 'numbers' are not better than Hicks (tackles, for example).. then it is you that is incapable of having an objective discussion about this subject.


But..

I'm not surprised motherfuckers

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Hicks didn't have those things last year or the year before and his production was still there (he was also most likely the best player on a top 10 defense last year). Having those things around him also works against him when you consider he has less opportunity to make plays and pile up those stats due to either other players getting there before him or the defense being so good they literally play less snaps for him (and others as well) to rack up those stats.



It is not a coincidence that Jones went from 7 or so sacks last year to 15 this year. And a lot of that revolves around him playing on a defense that faces offenses that are forced into constant pass 1st situations in an effort to keep up with the juggernaut Chiefs offenses possession after possession. I posted the actual disparity on 1st down alone between the Bears and Chiefs in an earlier post. I got the stat off of ESPN.com if anyone is interested in confirming it.


Also for what its worth, I never said Jones didn't deserve recognition, I'm saying Hicks deserves it more. And based off of what I have seen this year, and the last couple of seasons I think Hicks is a better player.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Also, for whatever this may be worth.. Pro Football Reference does what they call an 'Approximate Value' (AV for short) stat metric for every player which I believe is sort of like a WAR type number (not saying its exactly like that, but its similar I think). The higher the better (Drew Brees is at a 17 this year for example).

Hicks has a 13.

Jones has a 10.


..for what its worth


I'm not a metric guy tho so apologies if my interpretation is off on that.

_________________
If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?