It might be because he is beholden to the other shareholders. I remember the Bulls having something like 27 other owners back in the day. I think Reinsdorf only owned less than 10%. He was just the face of the franchise. I think there were others that owned a higher percentage. Maybe they were the ones pulling the strings all along.

_________________

So we're fucked even if/when he dies? That's a bummer.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If and when they ever cash out these guys are going to receive a helluva return on their investment. They initially purchased the team for about 11 mil. even if you factor in inflation the value of the franchise has increased exponentially since then.

_________________

I can still recognize an owner being cheap. And I am largely talking White Sox.

You almost completely discounted the 6 titles with Jordan. I don't think you were talking about the White Sox.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This thread has (((dangerous undertones)))

_________________

And then dismantle the team when the profit numbers started to decline because of increasing payrolls.

You think the owner of the Patriots would ever think of dismantling the team, the way the Bulls did?

Pathetic excuse for an owner.

I dont think NBA owners really deserve credit. That's why I took issue with that part of it. But cheapness is really hard to define in a league with a salary cap, so I think this discussion is largely based on what he did with the Sox.

What he does with the Sox is cheap.

Then again, you have to have revenue to spend money.

_________________

I don't know about pulling the strings, but there is certainly something to what you say. I don't think he's making unilateral decisions without discussing it with his guys. But for the most part they seem willing to follow him. He's made them a ton of money. The Sox are worth a whole lot more now than when they bought the team. And he signed that ridiculous stadium deal. The Bulls printed money. They still do even if it's not as much as it was in the Jordan years. I think if he wants to spend money with the Sox he is capable of twisting arms and having guys fall in line, especially when most of the guys have gotten fat under Jerry's leadership of the Bulls.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Kash, and Don

I think they allow him to run the basketball operation and I think they're allowed to control the purse strings. I think the 98 Bulls broke up because they didn't want to pay the guys to come back. I think there were a number of guys on expiring deals and they would have had to go significantly over the cap to bring them all back. I sort of remember it that way.

_________________

I think breaking up the Bulls was more about stupidity than money. They wanted to avoid a long rebuild after a dynasty like had happened to others.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Paul Konerko gave him the world-series-winning game ball. That probably made him melt inside.

Also, I thought Jerry was notoriously hands-off and always let his sports people do their thing, one of the reasons he garnered the loyalty that tends to go bidirectional.... Then again I doubt that other teams are beating down the door to get a piece of GarPax or Kenny Will.

_________________

And Krause had spent quite a bit of effort to shift the narrative that that team had run its course and was coming apart over nebulous "stuff". The all but unquestioned inevitability of that should have kept that bastard out of the HOF, whether he scouted Pearl Monroe or not.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I was telling a friend of mine who is not a baseball fan about Konerko handing him the ball and Jerry saying it was the greatest moment in his life. My friend sneered and she asked, "Has he been married? Does he have kids?" I said, "Yeah, but most people get married and have kids. How many get handed the ball from the final out of the World Series by Paul Konerko?" She laughed and had to admit that was right.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Kash, and Don

Jackson wasn't coming back if Krause was still in charge; Phil wanted more say over personnel decisions. MJ and Scottie couldn't change Phil's mind.

We saw how great of a job Phil did with the Knicks

_________________
Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

I think you guys are both misremembering a bit. It was really about Jackson, a fucking backstabber who wanted the job of the guy who pulled him off the Albany Patroons' bus and into the big leagues. Phil refused to come back unless he was GM/coach. And Jordan wasn't coming back if Phil wasn't there. The breakup of that team is squarely on Phil and Jordan.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Kash, and Don

Yeah, he was a HUGE Brooklyn Dodgers fan. I'm sure the family understood where he was coming from.

_________________
Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Three words: "Organizations win championships"

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Do you disagree with that?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Kash, and Don

I do. Great players win them. If an organization shows itself incapable of getting another one with different great players I think it’s fair to invoke luck into the discussion at that point. Organizations like the Steelers and Celtics win championships. The Bulls got lucky they drafted the best player ever.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Its why I never cared for Phil. He snaked Doug Collins in order to get the job and learned how cultivating relationships with All Time Great Players (Jordan Kobe Shaq) was the key to remaining gainfully employed. Whether a person likes or loathes Krause the shit that he did to him was borderline criminal. He created the toxic environment surrounding the team and was the forerunner in turning the players against management.

_________________

Yes and no. Jerry West would as well as he's constructed two, and is working on a third. Organizations have to be able to let the creatives work without interference.

Although in fairness, the boss banging Phil turned into a problem for West in LA.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

... and Jordan might not have won any championships without HoGrant and Pip for the first three and a bunch of players for the second three. The second three-peat had deeeeep talent and a lot of guys who were the best in the league at what they do (Kerr, Rodman, Kukoc).

_________________

Sure. If you want to use that to say Krause is/was an underrated GM I won’t argue. I think the distinct lack of success for two decades and counting now since then means you necessarily can’t give Reinsdorf much credit for that. If the Bulls organization was responsible for those six titles and not Jordan and Pippen then two decades is enough time to prove you can at least make it back to one Finals series.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

they would have been better off with an owner in a vegetative state.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

The Bulls benefited tremendously from the decline (Pistons, Celtics, Lakers, Philly) of some great teams. Their ascension occurred as the league was becoming a tadbit more balanced. They benefitted greatly from that. None of their Championship teams could have defeated any of the teams that I listed when they were really good.

_________________

72 (and 10) more pages

I think those are two different arguments though. There are scenarios where Jordan could have played his whole career without winning a championship and nobody would be talking about him as the "greatest of all-time." The fact that he was surrounded with not just good or great players, but the right players, was important. And the organization did that. The fact that it was incapable of doing it again doesn't take that fact away. If Jordan were left to his own devices he would have been trying to win championships with Charles Oakley and Walter Davis. He's lucky Krause didn't allow that.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Kash, and Don

Still only about 10% of that which is consumed by the DiCaro thread.

_________________