maybe i should brow beat him with circular arguments for 40 pages[/quote]
Maybe you should make an argument for 1 page.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

For real though. This thread took a ridiculous turn.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He has a nationally syndicated radio show, he's not exactly going unheard. It's just getting harder to book Royce Da 5'3'' for live shows because at universities, the student is the customer, the customer is always right, and the customers want other performances booked.

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Again, we're getting far afield. But I would agree that all of these issues are connected.

Now you're echoing the complaints of Victor Davis Hanson. The academy isn't supposed to be a for-profit endeavor. We don't want Harvard and Yale to be Chamberlain College and Phoenix University, do we?

You made this argument above: "I think the idea that administrators and trustees are especially more sympathetic to students now (or even being more influenced by them than the other way around as Spaulding suggests) isn't the case at all..." and now you seem to be contradicting it.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You've assumed what you're trying to argue for here. Why is "don't stand there screaming in the middle of an auditorium or venue" an acceptable regulation on speech? Are you suggesting Ben Shapiro not being able to get his message out without having to worry about others exercising their own freedom of speech is somehow equivalent to a person shouting fire in a crowded theater? Also, I think I have missed the part of the Constitution that mentions freedom of hearing, so it sounds to me like you're another leftist loon trying to create rights out of thin air rather than abiding by the guiding principles of our most wise founders.

I agree, there are many avenues of expression. And Ben Shapiro is free to use them to get his speech out without trying to trample on the rights of others' free speech by denying their ability to heckle.

The problem with your argument is that hecklers aren't speaking. They're simply attempting to stop others from doing so.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

But they are speaking. The are using words.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Sometimes. Other times they're using horns or other types of noisemakers.

I'm not sure where a heckler's veto fits into the First Amendment. People with a lot more legal education than I have disagree on the issue.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Is there a right for a proprietor or administrator of an auditorium to invite any speaker? And then to not allow people to interrupt the occasion? Is one student allowed to stand in the middle of a college graduation and read the entire constitution with a bullhorn without consequence?

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Elections have consequences.

I'm not echoing Hanson at all since even his criticisms of for-profit schools largely ignores the economics in favor of his usual "the liberal arts ain't like what they used to be" hobbyhorse. This of course is why, despite being supposedly so against the coddling of the American mind, he nevertheless still wants to erode tenure because he thinks those damned humanities professors are far more ideological than him and all the problems in the academy can be traced back to that. BTW, I'm not even sure what the comparison between for-profits and the Ivy Leagues is supposed to be doing in your post.

I of course acknowledged that administrators sometimes side with students. It's right there in the last sentence of that paragraph. Again though, deciding which courses to offer and which professors to bring back based on little more than student evaluation algorithms scarcely strikes me as being especially sympathetic to actual student concerns. It's one again simply a matter of efficiency.

That is absolutely false. He is constantly talking about the use of adjuncts to teach classes for $3000 a term in place of tenured professors while administrators are paid in the mid six figures.




You seem to be all over the place on this. Are administrators of today more likely to side with students than their counterparts in the past or not?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yet he nevertheless wants to do away with tenure altogether. All of his gnashing of teeth about poor adjuncts rings hollow when he wants to do away with job security for everyone (after he himself was a major beneficiary of such job security).

I'm not all over the place at all, it just seems like you're struggling with ambiguity. In some instances administrators will be more sympathetic to students today and others less, and it's all largely driven by whether such sympathy would be good or bad for the university. I didn't make the initial claim on this point, and as far as I can tell, the two reasons put forward so far to suggest they are more sympathetic are that students heckling speakers aren't banned for life or something and that adjuncts with bad course reviews may not get brought back. Forgive me if I don't think either of those is indicative of an especially greater sympathy towards student concerns compared to previous decades.

What about the fact that the majority of public school educated graduates are not even really ready for the college system.Maybe we need to adapt the German system?

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

I'm sure Zeph would be fine with protestors shouting down Coates being the free speech defender that he is.

I don't understand how the left can defend the shouting down of invited speakers without seeing the longterm consequences. Certainly the left dominates Universities, but do you want a society where speakers are shouted down whenever the crowd disagrees with them?

Counter protesters shouting down a protest of uninvited protestors such as the Westboro Baptist Church is in a different category.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Free tuition for all?

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

No people are tested and steered into what they are apt to succeed in. This way we would not have a glut of college grads with useless degrees with a ton of student loan debt that they will never pay off.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Yes, that would be consistent with the most principled free speech advocacy I've been posting.


We already live in a society where people are in fact shouted down for speech others don't like, can lose jobs for speech that others don't like, and have platforms denied to them altogether. It just seems like we're all perfectly okay with those things as being examples of freedom of speech not being equal to freedom from consequences, unless of course it's uppity college students doing it. I'm all for making tactical and consequentialist critiques of student hecklers, just don't wrap that up in self-aggrandizing rubbish about the Most Holy Principle of Free Speech being egregiously violated (and realize those same tactical and consequentialist considerations can be applied to the allocating of platforms in the first place).

That kind of central planning sounds like ｓｏｃｉａｌｉｓｍ to me. Why should the government tell me what to do? Let the marketplace decide.

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I didn't get that impression from his post. It sounds like he's describing something close to what Germany does, not socialism.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Hey,not to burst your bubble but you do know the first Christians would be considered Socialists?
Fine then I don't want to hear shit about people who get degrees in shitass fields of study then with no job can not pay off their debt and want the government to pay it off.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Who is perfectly okay with those things? They're not illegal, but they're not something we should be encouraging. People complain about them all the time. Just look at this very site and what people think when Julie Dicaro tries to get people fired for voicing their opinion. It is your own perception that people only complain about college students doing it.

should also note that a lot of these college issues are not just people "screaming." Some of the protests consisted of riots, set fires ,and people acting as human barricades. that is not just speech

The marketplace has decided that a degree in gender studies is not as valuable as one in electrical engineering.

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The German system also determines if you would be better off learning a trade. This would alleviate a lot of the shortages we are facing in the trades.

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

You'll forgive me for getting my defenses up about a war nerd speaking so glowingly of the Germans.

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How does that invalidate anything? Point of fact the Germans have started less wars in their history than The Americans and they have a history 10 times as long.

_________________
When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"