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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:12 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
RFDC wrote:
IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Wrong section, and Whitehair is the best C in the NFC North.

Jeff Dickerson says Whitehair has been demoted to LG in OTA's.

How is it a demotion? He is still a starter on the OLine.

The same reason shortstops don't want to be moved to third or second.

And offensive guard has always been where you hide your two lesser linemen. Blind side tackle and center are the halo positions.
I don't think this is correct. The highest selection of a C in the NFL draft was at 15 since 1993 when a center went 14. It's also quite rare for more than one to even be chosen in the first round. That seems to be the worst of all OL positions.


of course it is. The Bears are actually hurting themselves by moving Whitehair to guard in a contract year.

He was drafted to play guard. He was moved to center out of necessity. Daniels was drafted to play center. He started at guard out of necessity. This was a move predicted literally on the day Daniels was drafted.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:21 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
RFDC wrote:
IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Wrong section, and Whitehair is the best C in the NFC North.

Jeff Dickerson says Whitehair has been demoted to LG in OTA's.

How is it a demotion? He is still a starter on the OLine.

The same reason shortstops don't want to be moved to third or second.

And offensive guard has always been where you hide your two lesser linemen. Blind side tackle and center are the halo positions.
I don't think this is correct. The highest selection of a C in the NFL draft was at 15 since 1993 when a center went 14. It's also quite rare for more than one to even be chosen in the first round. That seems to be the worst of all OL positions.

There are less centers in the NFL at any one time than guards, and offensive linemen have the longest average career length of any position. (At least as of 2014). I cannot find a breakdown of individual OL positions, but my guess is that centers last longer than guards or tackles also.

When that team picks a center in the early rounds...they usually have the position solved for the next several years. Guards bust out.

Going back over the last 15 years of the draft or so, it looks like it's about the same amount of C and G drafted in the first round http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldr ... e=position but that should give the advantage to C's considering a team needs 1 C and 2 G.

I just grabbed my coffee, btw, so I'm all ready to get Bricked. Do your worst.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:33 am 
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930 am and you’re just getting coffee? #ComplacentTrack

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:34 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
RFDC wrote:
IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Wrong section, and Whitehair is the best C in the NFC North.

Jeff Dickerson says Whitehair has been demoted to LG in OTA's.

How is it a demotion? He is still a starter on the OLine.

The same reason shortstops don't want to be moved to third or second.

And offensive guard has always been where you hide your two lesser linemen. Blind side tackle and center are the halo positions.
I don't think this is correct. The highest selection of a C in the NFL draft was at 15 since 1993 when a center went 14. It's also quite rare for more than one to even be chosen in the first round. That seems to be the worst of all OL positions.


of course it is. The Bears are actually hurting themselves by moving Whitehair to guard in a contract year.

He was drafted to play guard. He was moved to center out of necessity. Daniels was drafted to play center. He started at guard out of necessity. This was a move predicted literally on the day Daniels was drafted.


I think that Whitehair's best position is at guard and Daniels is a good center. Makes good sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:45 am 
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IMU wrote:
There are less centers in the NFL at any one time than guards, and offensive linemen have the longest average career length of any position. (At least as of 2014). I cannot find a breakdown of individual OL positions, but my guess is that centers last longer than guards or tackles also.

When that team picks a center in the early rounds...they usually have the position solved for the next several years. Guards bust out.
That may be a valid answer to the number of centers picked but it doesn't make sense as to why you have to go back to 1967 to see a center drafted in the top 10. If Center was really that important of a position then those picks would be much higher.


IMU wrote:
Going back over the last 15 years of the draft or so, it looks like it's about the same amount of C and G drafted in the first round http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldr ... e=position but that should give the advantage to C's considering a team needs 1 C and 2 G.

I just grabbed my coffee, btw, so I'm all ready to get Bricked. Do your worst.
Since 1990, there have been 15 centers drafted in the first round. There have been 31 G's drafted. There have been 109 T's drafted.

So, even if we say that G and C are the same(which you claim G is a downgrade) you still have the issue of Tackle and Center being the "halo positions" when the distribution of first round picks shows that not to be the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:45 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
930 am and you’re just getting coffee? #ComplacentTrack

This is my first office coffee. I previously consumed my at home coffee.

You have to remember... I'm not an eight-to-five drone. I had only just gotten in.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:55 am 
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Some bad thoughts by IMU here, but I see Brick has already set him straight. Well done.


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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:06 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Some bad thoughts by IMU here, but I see Brick has already set him straight. Well done.

Not at all.

Center is responsible for communication, snaps, linemen adjustments, etc. It's silly that this would be debated. At best, Brick is stating Center and Guards are equally important, which he can only do when he willfully ignores the fact that Centers have longer careers than any other position besides QB.

The intelligence and experience of a C is integral to success at the position. Teams do not need to replace (read: draft) Centers as often as Guards.

Here is data specifically related to Pro Bowlers (since I can't find the data on simply 'starters')

https://herosports.com/nfl/average-year ... ition-aiai
https://herosports.com/nfl/average-age- ... c-afc-aiai

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:09 pm 
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The two highest paid LG's in the NFL make 13 million and 12 million a year respectively. The two highest paid centers make 11 million a year. The numbers say there is zero evidence to suggest center is more important to NFL teams as they pay elite guards slightly more.


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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:15 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Center is responsible for communication, snaps, linemen adjustments, etc. It's silly that this would be debated. At best, Brick is stating Center and Guards are equally important, which he can only do when he willfully ignores the fact that Centers have longer careers than any other position besides QB.
Once again though, if center was that important, why has been since 1967 that one has gone in the top ten? In over 50 years, there hasn't been a single one who was good enough to be drafted that high at such an important position.

IMU wrote:
The intelligence and experience of a C is integral to success at the position. Teams do not need to replace (read: draft) Centers as often as Guards.
If anything, this fact should mean that centers get overdrafted like quarterbacks often do to try and find a guy who will look down the position for the longest amount of time. There have been 15 centers drafted in the first round since 1990. Even if we give all of those centers a career of 8 years, we are still looking at the turnover being about 4 per team in that time period and yet it averages to about .5 first round picks per team.

To put it bluntly, 15 picks over almost 30 years in the first round of the NFL draft means it isn't a highly valuable position. Add in that all 15 picks were out of the top ten(going all the way back to 1967) and it becomes even more clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:18 pm 
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When NFL teams look for a center, they look for a highly intelligent guy that didn't have the size/speed/strength needed to be an elite left tackle or guard. They don't have that "rare" skill. That is just reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:30 pm 
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A lot of arguing over Whitehair's rightful demotion.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:02 pm 
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... o-returner

Every position along the offensive line has a significant impact on the production of the offense, but many coaches will stash their most vulnerable front-line blocker at left guard. The position requires a blocker to possess the strength and power to move defenders off the ball on running plays, but coaches can mask a player's deficiencies at the point of attack by instructing the center to double-team or chip before climbing to the second level. The same tactics can be employed in pass protection, depending on the athleticism and agility of the left guard.

Source: The actual NFL, which knows more about the NFL than Boilermaker Rick or IMU.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2019 ... ard-switch

James Daniels, who started 10 games at left guard last year as a rookie, is getting snaps at center, coach Matt Nagy confirmed. Cody Whitehair, who has started every game at center the last three years, is at Daniels’ old spot, left guard.

James Daniels will now be tasked with making up for Cody Whitehair's deficiencies. This seems pretty clear cut.

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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Yup, the Colts drafted Quentin Nelson top 10 and "hid" him at left guard cause he couldn't block.


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 Post subject: Re: Post Draft Analysis
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:34 pm 
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The bears have stashed their two most vulnerable blockers at tackle

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