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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:03 pm 
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https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/N ... -play-next

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In one of his more candid moments this past season, NBA commissioner Adam Silver confessed that he was concerned about the mental health of NBA players.

"A lot of players are unhappy," Silver told Bill Simmons at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, attributing much of the anxiety to social media.

There are any number of environmental or chemical factors present in "unhappiness" -- social media is certainly one, mental health conditions that go undiagnosed and untreated are likely another. One less obvious feature present in the lives of young NBA players is that the vast majority of them are playing in cities, for bosses, with co-workers and on behalf of brands they had zero influence in choosing.

tfw when unchosen brand

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Imagine a system in which incoming rookies enjoyed the power to choose -- say unrestricted free agency. Critics contend that such a setup would concentrate the best young rookies on established and/or sexier franchises. But in a restrictive salary-cap system, a capped-out team doesn't have the resources to offer Williamson what he'd command in free agency. The Warriors would be every bit as hamstrung in pursuit of Williamson, Ja Morant or any other top-five pick as they are in chasing Kawhi Leonard and Kyrie Irving.

Would the Lakers be assured a top-three talent every year by virtue of being the Lakers? Who knows, but under the current system, the most recognizable brand in North American professional sports drafted the No. 2 pick three years running from 2015 through 2017, and are slated to pick fourth this season. If rookies were free agents, the Lakers would not only have to win prospects with the power of persuasion, they'd also have to pay them something close to market value.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:11 pm 
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That may be the worst idea in the history of mankind.

ESPN needs to chill the fuck out about Zion not going to a major market.

The network has been in over drive this year pushing major market discussions, and broadcasts down our throats. Just a shallow attempt to grab viewers from big cities to help ratings with the wave of cord cutting not stopping.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:16 pm 
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It is a good idea.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Glad something like this is a non starter for owners.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:56 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
owners.


Problematic

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:27 pm 
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So the question is what is so important about the draft but doesn't matter when the player is free to sign wherever they want after their first contract is over?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:32 pm 
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no draft would be awesome.

so much more fun.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So the question is what is so important about the draft but doesn't matter when the player is free to sign wherever they want after their first contract is over?

Gives smaller market teams a chance to sell their organization and team on a player and build around him. With no draft maybe Duncan signs with an east coast team, Giannis signs in NY, Russell Westbrook signs in LA, etc.

With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.

But really I just mainly reject the logic that a draft is "unfair" to players. I'm almost always on the players side in the players vs owners battles but acting like they are being mistreated is a bridge too far.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:38 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So the question is what is so important about the draft but doesn't matter when the player is free to sign wherever they want after their first contract is over?

Gives smaller market teams a chance to sell their organization and team on a player and build around him. With no draft maybe Duncan signs with an east coast team, Giannis signs in NY, Russell Westbrook signs in LA, etc.

With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.

But really I just mainly reject the logic that a draft is "unfair" to players. I'm almost always on the players side in the players vs owners battles but acting like they are being mistreated is a bridge too far.

a salary cap prevents your scenario from occurring.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:39 pm 
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Kirkwood wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So the question is what is so important about the draft but doesn't matter when the player is free to sign wherever they want after their first contract is over?

Gives smaller market teams a chance to sell their organization and team on a player and build around him. With no draft maybe Duncan signs with an east coast team, Giannis signs in NY, Russell Westbrook signs in LA, etc.

With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.

But really I just mainly reject the logic that a draft is "unfair" to players. I'm almost always on the players side in the players vs owners battles but acting like they are being mistreated is a bridge too far.

a salary cap prevents your scenario from occurring.

No it does not. A hard cap might, but not their current one

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:45 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So the question is what is so important about the draft but doesn't matter when the player is free to sign wherever they want after their first contract is over?

Gives smaller market teams a chance to sell their organization and team on a player and build around him. With no draft maybe Duncan signs with an east coast team, Giannis signs in NY, Russell Westbrook signs in LA, etc.

With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.

But really I just mainly reject the logic that a draft is "unfair" to players. I'm almost always on the players side in the players vs owners battles but acting like they are being mistreated is a bridge too far.

a salary cap prevents your scenario from occurring.

No it does not. A hard cap might, but not their current one

Agreed (with FF). The draft provides 5 yrs of team control (for 1st rounders) as well as an incentive for the player to re-sign with the team that drafted them. A look at the play-off teams from 2019 includes a nice mix of small market teams that would likely be shut out if the draft were eliminated.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:45 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Gives smaller market teams a chance to sell their organization and team on a player and build around him. With no draft maybe Duncan signs with an east coast team, Giannis signs in NY, Russell Westbrook signs in LA, etc.
Small market teams could still compete and maybe even better by smart money management. It also seems pretty rare for things to work out as you have described anyways. Most of the teams with elite players on rookie contracts are bad to average virtually the whole time. As for Giannis, he was the 15th pick in the draft. A team like Milwaukee could easily have still gotten him.



FavreFan wrote:
With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.
This assumes players are willing to take significant discounts. If Zion was offered to go to the Knicks instead of the Pelicans this year but he would be paid 50% less do you think he would do it?

FavreFan wrote:
But really I just mainly reject the logic that a draft is "unfair" to players. I'm almost always on the players side in the players vs owners battles but acting like they are being mistreated is a bridge too far.
I don't think it is unfair either. It's the way things work. It's just like how LeBron complained that he didn't get to spend Christmas at home very often.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:47 pm 
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with a hard cap I don't see that it really matters much either way. I don't care one way or another.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:56 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.
This assumes players are willing to take significant discounts. If Zion was offered to go to the Knicks instead of the Pelicans this year but he would be paid 50% less do you think he would do it?
The luxury tax kicks in at $132,000,000. If the top 6 destination cities each sign 3 top players to around $30,000,000/yr, what does that leave for the rest of the league? Do you think the next tier of players goes to the Pelicans, Sacramento or OKC? Not likely.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.
This assumes players are willing to take significant discounts. If Zion was offered to go to the Knicks instead of the Pelicans this year but he would be paid 50% less do you think he would do it?
The luxury tax kicks in at $132,000,000. If the top 6 destination cities each sign 3 top players to around $30,000,000/yr, what does that leave for the rest of the league? Do you think the next tier of players goes to the Pelicans, Sacramento or OKC? Not likely.

On top of that, to answer Rick's question, yes I do think Zion would accept a 1 year deal from a big club with stars on it with the assurance the team will give him a max extension the following offseason if things work out well. Over his career he will more than make up that first year loss of wages in additional endorsements.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:20 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.
This assumes players are willing to take significant discounts. If Zion was offered to go to the Knicks instead of the Pelicans this year but he would be paid 50% less do you think he would do it?
The luxury tax kicks in at $132,000,000. If the top 6 destination cities each sign 3 top players to around $30,000,000/yr, what does that leave for the rest of the league? Do you think the next tier of players goes to the Pelicans, Sacramento or OKC? Not likely.
What does this question have to do with the draft though? It's not like teams are becoming elite with players on their rookie deals.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
With no draft it would essentially just be the Lakers, Knicks, Heat, and one of the Texas teams taking turns having the best super team.
This assumes players are willing to take significant discounts. If Zion was offered to go to the Knicks instead of the Pelicans this year but he would be paid 50% less do you think he would do it?
The luxury tax kicks in at $132,000,000. If the top 6 destination cities each sign 3 top players to around $30,000,000/yr, what does that leave for the rest of the league? Do you think the next tier of players goes to the Pelicans, Sacramento or OKC? Not likely.

Good point. The "max salary" needs to be abolished.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:23 pm 
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1. June 2021 is the last draft.
2. Limit entry-level contracts to a maximum of 4 years, with unrestricted free agency after the contract ends
3. Require that any entry-level contracts for a greater total value than the top 20 entry-level contracts the year before are guaranteed for all 4 years
4. Entry-level contracts are no-trade no-cut as of the 60th game of the second year
5. Set a cap and a floor by team for total contract value given to first year players based on 3-year playoff record, and the total floor across the league is equal to 102% of the amount spent by the league the year before
6. Entry-level cap space can be traded as of the end of the 2022 regular season. If you've traded a draft pick for 2022 or later, it gets converted to a swap of entry-level cap space

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:24 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
On top of that, to answer Rick's question, yes I do think Zion would accept a 1 year deal from a big club with stars on it with the assurance the team will give him a max extension the following offseason if things work out well. Over his career he will more than make up that first year loss of wages in additional endorsements.
I can't imagine this is true. Zion has made far less in his life than all of the current big time free agents and I don't see any of them lining up to do that unless it is for injury issues.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:25 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
On top of that, to answer Rick's question, yes I do think Zion would accept a 1 year deal from a big club with stars on it with the assurance the team will give him a max extension the following offseason if things work out well. Over his career he will more than make up that first year loss of wages in additional endorsements.
I can't imagine this is true. Zion has made far less in his life than all of the current big time free agents and I don't see any of them lining up to do that unless it is for injury issues.

Ever since Bosh did it, max FA's have routinely taken less than the max to join a contender. Durant going to GS his first year is probably the most recent example. Kemba going to LA this summer might be the next one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:28 pm 
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It's just not fair to make players do their damn jobs in such undesirable markets as New Orleans, Chicago, Toronto, Atlanta, Washington, Denver, Salt Lake City, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, Portland, Orlando, Charlotte, Sacramento, Phoenix, Memphis, and San Antonio. Have some respect for people.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:33 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Ever since Bosh did it, max FA's have routinely taken less than the max to join a contender. Durant going to GS his first year is probably the most recent example. Kemba going to LA this summer might be the next one.
Bosh took a $110 million contract instead of a $125 million contract. That's not anywhere close to a 50% discount. Also, Bosh had already made about $60 million at that point.

If the money was around 10% difference then I could see it but it's pretty bad if you are a terrible team and still have so many bad contracts you can't significantly beat an offer from a good team.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:36 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Ever since Bosh did it, max FA's have routinely taken less than the max to join a contender. Durant going to GS his first year is probably the most recent example.


Didn't Durant still sign for a huge sum of money as enabled by the failure of the league and union to incrementally adjust the salary cap?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:37 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ever since Bosh did it, max FA's have routinely taken less than the max to join a contender. Durant going to GS his first year is probably the most recent example. Kemba going to LA this summer might be the next one.
Bosh took a $110 million contract instead of a $125 million contract. That's not anywhere close to a 50% discount. Also, Bosh had already made about $60 million at that point.

If the money was around 10% difference then I could see it but it's pretty bad if you are a terrible team and still have so many bad contracts you can't significantly beat an offer from a good team.

You're looking at 4 year deals. Zion can choose to sign for 1 year and then sign a max next off-season and he doesn't lose out on much money compared to his career earnings and he doesn't get stuck in a place he doesn't want to be for 4 years.

It's also not accurate to compare current players actions to this hypothetical because the hypothetical presents a universe completely different than the current one so players decisions would clearly be different as well. They'd have more options.

But really I'm glad this is all just speculation and it will never happen. A rare example of owner greed benefitting the league.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ever since Bosh did it, max FA's have routinely taken less than the max to join a contender. Durant going to GS his first year is probably the most recent example.


Didn't Durant still sign for a huge sum of money as enabled by the failure of the league and union to incrementally adjust the salary cap?

Iirc league wanted to increment it and the union wouldn't consider it. But he did sign for less than the max and way less than what OKC could have offered

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:38 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
On top of that, to answer Rick's question, yes I do think Zion would accept a 1 year deal from a big club with stars on it with the assurance the team will give him a max extension the following offseason if things work out well. Over his career he will more than make up that first year loss of wages in additional endorsements.
I can't imagine this is true. Zion has made far less in his life than all of the current big time free agents and I don't see any of them lining up to do that unless it is for injury issues.

Ever since Bosh did it, max FA's have routinely taken less than the max to join a contender. Durant going to GS his first year is probably the most recent example. Kemba going to LA this summer might be the next one.
Durant wouldn't have even considered GS if it weren't for their previous success in the draft.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:40 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ever since Bosh did it, max FA's have routinely taken less than the max to join a contender. Durant going to GS his first year is probably the most recent example.


Didn't Durant still sign for a huge sum of money as enabled by the failure of the league and union to incrementally adjust the salary cap?

Iirc league wanted to increment it and the union wouldn't consider it. But he did sign for less than the max and way less than what OKC could have offered

Right, I meant they had to come to an agreement together and could not, which was mostly on the union. They wanted it all at once, which I get, but it was poor stewardship of the game.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:42 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
You're looking at 4 year deals. Zion can choose to sign for 1 year and then sign a max next off-season and he doesn't lose out on much money compared to his career earnings and he doesn't get stuck in a place he doesn't want to be for 4 years.
I would think the simple answer to that would simply not let a rookie sign a one year deal and resign with that team. However, has that ever happened in NBA history? Why didn't Anthony Davis do it as soon as his rookie deal was up in 2016?

FavreFan wrote:
It's also not accurate to compare current players actions to this hypothetical because the hypothetical presents a universe completely different than the current one so players decisions would clearly be different as well. They'd have more options.
Why would they have more options? It's basically just free agency starting as a rookie. The pool of money across the board actually goes down as you don't get the below market rates for the first four years of a career.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:45 pm 
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I'm with Rick on the paycut stuff being quite different for a vet vs a rookie, but above and beyond that there's only 5 starting positions per team. So we wouldn't just be talking about having to potentially take short-term paycuts to go to one of the few desirable teams in the first place, but long-term ones as well for players who likely won't be featured much over their rookie deal anyway.

I dunno, I get it's fun and easy to mock the players' feels argument (though to be fair Arnovitz has been anti-draft for ages and is just using a new angle to continue to push that position), but these doomsday scenarios about poor wittle small market teams also ain't exactly pulling on my heartstrings and don't seem especially realistic to me either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Even if a team offers the most money, a larger market could just partner with local businesses to offer more through endorsement packages. Free agency is already extremely top heavy. If you eliminated the draft their would be no hope for many markets. Also, the draft is about the only reason fans of down franchises stay interested.

Empowering the players has led to lower and lower ratings. The most watched game in NBA history remains the 1998 Finals game 6.

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