It has to do more with the talent level in the eastern conference. The Bulls have some average talent. It's not an accomplishment to be the 7th seed in the east. If the drafted rookie has an impact, then they have enough to win 50% of their games.

I think the Bulls have some talent. They just don't have enough to match up with the NBA's elite.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

rose

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@audioidkid

I go the other way. I think that Skiles had this team over-achieving. To me, what the Bulls were those last several playoff years was a team with inferior talent, but superior hustle. Like the Bulls, the entire NBA was in the process of exercising the demons that had materialized in the early part of the new millennium, with an over-abundance of young (read: immature) players and bad contracts; in that environment, Skiles was able to get a team which had mediocre talent, but a group of guys generally willing to give 100% to the second or third tier of NBA success. But last year, with the NBA getting better, and the Bulls' players getting sick of the Skiles message (and the malignant influence of Wallace), they were suddenly exposed almost overnight.

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The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
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Well, as you say above, the Bulls achieved success two seasons ago by outworking opponents. They didn't have overwhelming talent in '06 and likely won't have it next year.

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Nas, I am aware this is becoming a punchline in my message board vernacular... but did you watch the games? Every GM in the NBA will tell you that its basketball-retarded to suggest Gooden can become a better player then David West.

All you have is stats and CP(Which, btw, I warned you about like 3 months ahead of time) to back up your claims. Please bring me an in-game scenario in which you think they are the same. West is a better mid-range and outside shooter. He's a much better rebounder and his stats would reflect that if Tyson(instead of Noah and Gray) didnt play besides him. Ditto with defense. His passing game is much better also. He has more post moves than Gooden does. Do you really think Gooden would have gone toe-to-toe with Duncan and outplayed him, even given the best PG in the history of basketball(CP isnt yet, that was used for effect). Well, West did just that. He outplayed possibly the best PF in the history of the game at the end of his prime. Thats something Pau Gasol cant put on his resume. Quite simply, your argument is a joke.

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Fare you well, fare you well
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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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I was busy watching Paul games but I didnt overlook Gooden or Hughes. I wish you were right on Gooden, but you are painfully wrong. West can be one of the best players on a title team, Gooden cant. Gooden gets decent stats when on a terrible team but when paired with a GREAT player like Bron he is woefully out of his league. I would be willing to bet any amount he never duplicates West's numbers last year, and I suspect West is gonna get better.

You know that I didnt want to attack you on the watching games because I know you watch them more often than most just like you said something along the lines of "Damn I thought FF was smarter than to make dumbass comments like that" in the Teddy thread. While they are socialogically very different, I think the "Gooden can be as good as West" comment is completley assanine. I wish/hope Im wrong, but I know Im not. He doesnt have his outside shot, his defensive tenacity, his rebounding or passing ability. And he's older. Quite simply, he's not and never will be as good as West, who is way more likely to improve then Gooden based on age and prior performance.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So let's answer the real question around here:

What number is Rose going to wear?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Please, please do. I wont be around as often, to the joy of much around here I bet, but I will be sure to drop in on that thread as often as possible.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I doubt very much they will regret the pick. Obviously they will if Rose is a bust, just like if Oden sucks Portland will regret not taking Durant. There are no sure things. If they take Rose, I'll be happy. We agree his ceiling is higher and I dont think his floor is nearly as low as you do.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Again I disagree, par for the course. I dont think Rose has a low floor at all and his ceiling is alot higher I think. He can dominate both ends of the floor, I dont think Beasley can. I also dont think it will take three years. By the end of his second season I think he will be very good. Also I dont know too many SF's who can carry a team.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Why you gotta keep bringing that up?

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Yes, Bird also played in a different era. LeBron is the only one on that list that can CARRY a team to a title. Carmelo will never do that. Ginobli is a shooting guard and would never have been the best guy on a title team. Pierce outplayed Kobe in the Finals and is definitely a great player, but he isnt definitively the best player on his team, although I think he is. I wouldnt say he CARRIED that team to a title, he had a ton of help.

So really the only one you can say is LeBron and he really isnt a typical SF. He is the primary faciltator and ball handler. He's a point forward basically. Beasley isnt even close to the same type of player.

Also I never said Rose would be better than Beasley right away, I said he wont suck like you think he will. I think he'll be really good for a rookie. Beasley will put up some nice numbers but I think it'll be clear who the better player will be.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What PG's have carried teams to titles????

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

No doubt you could argue those 2 did it.

But I keep hearing that in "today's NBA" you need to get a PG. So if that is the case, why hasnt there been an example of a PG carrying a team to a title?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

What, you mean Tony Parker didnt carry the Spurs last year even though he won Finals MVP? Good point but it wont be long(Chris Paul). Since the rules changed in I think 2003 or 2004 PG's have consistently dominated the league. Players like Nash, Deron, Paul, etc. have been pretty much unstoppable. It's pretty much a concensus around the league that PG has replaced C as the most valuable position. Nas even has agreed with me its more important than SF.

If you wanna say Pierce carried the C's to a title Chauncey took the Pistons there too.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So does that mean if given the choice between Chris Paul and LeBron James you would go with Paul?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I already said LeBron is the probably the most unique SF probably ever. He doesnt play like an SF. He's a PG in a PF's body. That said, yes I'd rather have Paul than LeBron.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Ok, fair enough.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

We'll see who wins a title first. I know this word is overused in sports, but I'm not positive Bron is a "winner".

I dont blame anyone for wanting LeBron over Paul, but I dont think Im insane for preferring Paul.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So let me get this straight Nas. You think Gooden was held back in Cleveland and with a PG like Paul he could be a 20-10 guy, right? Given this, you'd rather have LeBron? I understand he is arguably the most talented player in the league, although I think thats Kobe, but Paul himself is one of the most talented players in the league also, makes his teammates better more than Bron, and I would say is more clutch.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So Nas no longer believes Deng is as good as Lebron?

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I cant wait for Nas's reaction is the rumors are true and the Heat pass on Beasley and take Mayo.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What would it take for the Bulls to get Beasley in addition to Rose?

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The Heat's pick.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

A new GM

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

If you don't think Beasley has a low floor then you are crazy. There is a long list of college scoring machines who were absolute busts in the NBA. Add in the fact that Beasley has some character issues and I could make a case that Rose is the safer pick. Beasley will be a tweener in the NBA. Sometimes that works out well, but sometimes that makes great players average. If he can't guard a 3 or 4 on defense, it's not going to work well for him.

This isn't Lebron James we are talking about here. Beasley is FAR from the sure thing you make him out to be. It is likely that he'll be the best scoring rookie in the league. He'll probably win rookie of the year, especially if he goes to Miami where he can rely on Wade.

Even though everyone discounts this, Beasley's floor is Marcus Fizer. His celing is Elton Brand.
Derrick Rose's floor is better than Kirk Hinrich, and his ceiling is Chris Paul.

Neither one is a sure thing.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It is being reported that the Miami Heat are not very high on Beasley. They may be looking to swap out of the spot and would prefer to get Mayo or someone else.

Beasley is not the sure thing that everyone is making him out to be.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Where is the similarity between Brand and Beasley? They are radically dissimilar players. The Fizer comparison is closer, but Beasley is more athletic, more explosive, a better ballhandler, and has a much more complete, polished offensive game than Fizer had coming out of college. B&B have compared Beasley to Derrick Coleman--that reference strikes me as a much more accurate starting point for projecting what Beasley might become in the pros.

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I assume you mean Deng and Noah? If so, I would make that trade.

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If Rose wasn't in this draft and I were the Bulls, I would take Mayo over Beasley