That you seem pretty over the top about it and seem convinced that acquiring him is a virtual guarantee for a championship



I stand corrected. I agree Rose will probably not be a #1 scorer, but you never know how he will develop. I might not say Deron Williams is a #1 scorer but he's pretty damn close and I could see Rose getting to that point. While I might agree that Beasley would be a good "#2 player", I feel there are plenty of other players that are or will become available that would fit that mold. I guess I didn't follow your thoughts before/during the draft, are you of the opinion the Bulls should have taken Beasley? I understand you want both, but do you feel Rose was the right choice?

of course you'd rather have Rose...Bease was going up against Noah, for cryin' out loud...of course he will look like a superstar. people who keep supporting Noah need to watch the games...

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

We do. You need to not put so much stock in summer league games. Didn't catch the 20 rebound game last season? Noah can play. Also Tyrus and some other bums that probably wont play in the NBA guarded Beasley way more than Noah did.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Wow. You are basing this on one year of action? How many other good players in the NBA would have been rejected based on your view of their first year?

The kid can play. He is never going to be a great offensive player, but he will bring rebounding, defense and a lot of energy to the games. I think he can and will be a nice player alongside of some other players who will carry the team offensively.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Not to mention the "You need to watch the games" comment is coming from someone who thought Tyson Chandler got farther in the playoffs then Elton Brand did.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Rose wasnt that big of a risk. He's gonna be a very good player, and it wont take the three years you think it will.

I'm pretty sure Beardown was saying we werent winning a title with Beasley in the next three years, which I think is a safe bet even if Beasley meets your highest expectations.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The bulls are waiting to go after a title either way. You're dreaming if you think Beasley is taking this roster to a title in the next 3-4 years.



I didnt know that. If thats true, then it could very easily be done with us absorbing the Banks and Blount terrible contracts. I think we both know Im right though that Pax is too conservative to even explore such a trade.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So what? If Beasley sucks he will go down as a terrible #2. Rose will be a very good NBA player. I'm very confident of this.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I think its equally obvious Rose wont suck.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Beasley might not either. If Beasley is a 24-10 guy that doesnt play team ball or defense Im not even sure he'll be the 2nd best in the draft.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No one has disputed Pax's reticence to make a deal. The question was weather the trade is a good idea, and there's no question in my mind that I would much rather have a core of Beasley and Rose than Deng and Rose.

I have to say, though, that I find it more than a little amusing that you position yourself as a "basketball realist", a veritable fountain of commonsense in a hoops world gone mad. In the past year, you have labeled Hinrich a near elite level point guard with lockdown defensive capabilities, categorized Luol Deng as a future perennial 20 and 10 guy with elite ability, identified Tyrus Thomas as a player who possesses a better chance of becoming a superstar than the aforementioned eventual 20 and 10 guy Deng, and have described Joakim Noah as a likely defensive enforcer and dominating rebounder on the order of Tyson Chandler. If you put this magnificent assortment of players together with Rose, who you also regard as a future dominant player, then there's no need for the roster to be adjusted at all, is there? All we need to do is let the coming championship season--not this year, but perhaps the next one--unfold before our very eyes. Excuse me, but if this is your version of basketball "reality", I think I choose to remain exiled to the realm of "fantasy".

_________________

Well, it's clear you dont read my posts when it comes to hoops, so that pretty much loses any interest I have in discussing basketball with you.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

+1?

Im surprised Nas didnt mention Beasley's 2nd official career game from yesterday.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I just had to say that I laughed out loud when I read this.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

how far did Brand get? and as far as the Noah comments, he's awful. Perhaps we've gotten used to poor basketball, but he's not that much different from Tyson, is he? Good rebounder, wing runner, same build, same bad shot, attitude problems out the ying yang...I just don't like him, and I didn't like him for four years at Florida either...

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

1.) Brand got to the 2nd round in 2006, same as Tyson this past season. The Clips beat the Nuggets and lost to the Suns that year.

2.) No, he's not that different from a young Tyson. Thats why I want to keep him. He has potential to become what Tyson is now. I dont know if he will realize that potential or not, but he had a pretty good rookie year.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

the Bulls don't have anyone to carry the team offensively...they mis-drafted, therefore getting a high energy, no offense player...he's a big time attitude problem too, as is Tyrus...he's a poor man's Tyson Chandler, and that's not saying a whole lot.

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

How did they mis-draft? Who should they have drafted instead, huh? Young and Thornton look like they could be better players, but iirc noone had them going in the top 10 and we didn't think SF was a need at that point anyway with Deng.

As for poor man's Tyson... I've noticed this trend in several of your NBA posts, why do you feel compelled to judge players after 1 year in the league? I bet if Deron got drafted by the Bulls after 1 year you would have called him and his 10 ppg and 4 apg a bust.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

that's what fries me, FF...I've got no beef with you specifically, but the reason Chandler is good is the same reason Stromile Swift looked good for a couple years, why Gooden looked good for a couple years...they get good point guards and they look like great players because the guards make them good! Rose WILL make Noah look good...BUT that doesn't make Noah a good player!!! Tyson is no better than he was with the Bulls...he just has a good point guard...and when the talent matches up with talent, Noah will be found wanting, just like Tyson was...New Orleans was a team with some good role players and a superstar...that's why they went only as far as they did. Noah is a second rate player, and his attitude WILL eventually shorten his stay here...imo, obviously...

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

Wow. You are basing this on one year of action? How many other good players in the NBA would have been rejected based on your view of their first year?

The kid can play. He is never going to be a great offensive player, but he will bring rebounding, defense and a lot of energy to the games. I think he can and will be a nice player alongside of some other players who will carry the team offensively.[/quote]

the Bulls don't have anyone to carry the team offensively...they mis-drafted, therefore getting a high energy, no offense player...he's a big time attitude problem too, as is Tyrus...he's a poor man's Tyson Chandler, and that's not saying a whole lot.[/quote]

How did they mis-draft? Who should they have drafted instead, huh? Young and Thornton look like they could be better players, but iirc noone had them going in the top 10 and we didn't think SF was a need at that point anyway with Deng.

As for poor man's Tyson... I've noticed this trend in several of your NBA posts, why do you feel compelled to judge players after 1 year in the league? I bet if Deron got drafted by the Bulls after 1 year you would have called him and his 10 ppg and 4 apg a bust.[/quote]

Deron is a basketball player...I supported him from the beginning when everyone thought Dee Brown was what made the Illini go...

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

COF I also got no beef with you, but seriously do you watch basketball? Tyson probably gets 4-5 ppg more playing with Paul. I really dont see the correlation between Tyson becoming one of the best defensive big guys in the league and playing with an elite PG. Tyson is much better then he was with the Bulls. That tends to happen with HS players coming into the league. It takes em a bit longer but alot of them do eventually turn into great players. Also I wouldnt describe David West as a good role player. He's a legit All Star. Yes, Paul makes him better, but he's a very good player.

And when did Stro and Gooden look good? Gooden often looked overmatched and out of place in Cleveland. And Stromile has always been all about unrealized potential. I dont ever remember him putting a string of games together where he looked really good.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

FF: let me first say that I respect you and your posts, before we get too heated here. as far as who they should have drafted instead of Noah, had I been a member of this posting board at that time I would have said to trade the pick, which is what I was hoping they would do. instead, they drafted the LEAST desirable college player that was considered a top-10 talent. the Bulls needed experience, not more young players...again, imo...

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

How can anyone that actually watches basketball think that Tyson is no better than he was with the Bulls?

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

[/quote] COF I also got no beef with you, but seriously do you watch basketball? Tyson probably gets 4-5 ppg more playing with Paul. I really dont see the correlation between Tyson becoming one of the best defensive big guys in the league and playing with an elite PG. Tyson is much better then he was with the Bulls. That tends to happen with HS players coming into the league. It takes em a bit longer but alot of them do eventually turn into great players. Also I wouldnt describe David West as a good role player. He's a legit All Star. Yes, Paul makes him better, but he's a very good player.

And when did Stro and Gooden look good? Gooden often looked overmatched and out of place in Cleveland. And Stromile has always been all about unrealized potential. I dont ever remember him putting a string of games together where he looked really good.[/quote]

FF, I have the NBA ticket...I may even watch more basketball than you, but I obviously don't know. We're really at an impasse...the only thing Tyson has gotten better at with New Orleans is staying on the floor...he doesn't foul out as much and that's due to NO using him as a weak side defender, more often than not. Yes, West is an All-Star, and I do like his game but he's a player who disappeared for long stretches of the playoffs....I don't think Noah will even be as good as Tyson, and he's had four years in college....

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

Nothing wrong with getting a bit heated. Most of my favorite basketball discussions with Nas became a bit heated. Maybe they should have traded the pick, but I dont really know who or what they could have gotten. I believe they drafted Noah with the plans to replace an aging Ben Wallace. As it turned out Wallace aged in dog years and they had to throw Noah into the fray earlier then probably planned. He responded with a bit of inconsistency like all rookies do, but with many solid games. He's always around the ball, showed some improvement at the offensive end towards the end of the year. He's gonna average a double-double in his career, Im pretty confident about that. 6.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 1 steal and block per game in 20 minutes a game is pretty decent for a rookie. I will never understand why so many Bulls fans, especially on this board, will continue to hate on him.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm not arguing that Tyson is not BETTER with N.O....I just think it's pretty much due to him staying on the floor and playing with Paul...should Paul get hurt, you would see Tyson going back to being Chicago Bull Tyson, with only small improvement...imo

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

Im just gonna say I'd be very surprised if you watched more NBA that I do and I'll leave it at that.

Your comment continue to confuse me. How the hell did West disappear for long stretches? I dont understand that. He played GREAT in the Dallas series, and outplayed Duncan most of the Spurs series. I think he only had one bad game in all 12 of them. I dont understand that comment.

EDIT: I mis-remembered. West did have 3 bad games and 4 great games in the SAS series. Could have something to do with him being injured, but maybe not. He was going against the premiere post defender in the NBA though.

Noah going to college for four years has nothing to do with how good he will be in the NBA. Maybe it effects how good his rookie and maybe 2nd year will be, but has nothing to do with how good a career he will have. He might not become as good a player as Tyson does, but Tyson is still improving and already an elite rebounder and defender. There could very possibly be a DPOY award in his future.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

FF, I've played basketball my whole life, at the HS and junior college level, and I believe I know the difference between a basketball player who knows the game (Deron) and an athlete who's tall who gets most of his ability soley from athletisism. Noah and Chandler ARE athletes, but they are awkward basketball players....that's all I can say, I don't really know how to explain it...

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

Noah is an awkward player but he definitely knows basketball. He has a very high basketball IQ. I too understand the game very well and know the difference between a freakish athlete and great basketball player(Josh Smith anyone?). Noah knows how to play basketball. He's a good passer, knows when to set picks for the most part, is a good on the ball defender and knows when to rotate on the defensive end.

Tyson might not have the basketball IQ that Noah does, but he's a much better athlete and has developed his game alot over the years. He knows when and where to be for Paul to get him easy buckets. He's a great rebounder and defender. Those are the skills he excels at. I dont get why you think a PG dramatically improves those qualities in a player. I dont think I've heard that argument before.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul