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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:25 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
NME wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Deng was pretty great at his peak




Good, sure.


Great is a word I reserve for super stars and Deng was never a super star.


Butler is close to being great imo

Butler is great. If you think he's anything less than that your standards are too high. There's more than 3-4 great players in the league.

If you wanna say Deng wasn't great that's fine but at his peak he was the best LeBron defender in the NBA and there was nothing he couldn't do on the court while playing the most minutes per game in the NBA. He was great.

Are you drinking? And note I am not judging, but that last paragraph is absurd. Nothing he couldn’t do on the court...except dribble or create his own shot.

I am definitely several beers in.

We'll agree to disagree on dribbling and creating his own shot. He wasn't Kyrie Irving but of course he was fine at dribbling and creating his own shot.

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Jbi11s
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:27 pm 
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He seriously could not dribble the basketball.

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Zippy-The-Pinhead
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:27 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Deng is maybe "great" if you limit the pool to Chicago players. I could buy him being a local great player.

No, not that either. You don’t become great by reducing the competition. He might be a top 25 Bull but that doesn’t make him great.

This is just crazy talk.

There is a 0.0% chance LaMelo Ball ever becomes as good as Luol Deng was. You either lost your memory or your mind.

Again, I was a Deng fan but I also recognize what he was. Ball might not be as good but to say zero chance is silly. That’s not that high of a bar and I’m certain most “experts” see Ball as a better prospect than Deng following their respective drafts.

I'm not certain about that at all and, as I said, I think experts are wildly off on Ball this year and really most guys I trust don't like him as a prospect. I'm confident with my 0% declaration and disagree that you recognize what Deng was. You're acting like he was Bruce Bowen.


Deng was basically a poor man's Paul Pierce with better defense. More of a slasher than jump shot artist but just trying to think of people.

You’re killing me Smalls. Deng and Pierce are not comparable at all except for the position they played.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:27 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Deng is maybe "great" if you limit the pool to Chicago players. I could buy him being a local great player.

No, not that either. You don’t become great by reducing the competition. He might be a top 25 Bull but that doesn’t make him great.

This is just crazy talk.

There is a 0.0% chance LaMelo Ball ever becomes as good as Luol Deng was. You either lost your memory or your mind.

Again, I was a Deng fan but I also recognize what he was. Ball might not be as good but to say zero chance is silly. That’s not that high of a bar and I’m certain most “experts” see Ball as a better prospect than Deng following their respective drafts.

I'm not certain about that at all and, as I said, I think experts are wildly off on Ball this year and really most guys I trust don't like him as a prospect. I'm confident with my 0% declaration and disagree that you recognize what Deng was. You're acting like he was Bruce Bowen.

You described him as the best LBJ defender. Sounds like Bowen to me. Except Bowen was a much better defender. Deng was better all around but still not, nor ever, great.

Bowen was probably a better defender but Deng never got the credit he deserved for his defense. In 2011 there wasn't a player in the NBA more capable of defending LeBron than Deng. Maybe Shawn Marion.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:28 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:

Deng was basically a poor man's Paul Pierce with better defense. More of a slasher than jump shot artist but just trying to think of people.

You’re killing me Smalls. Deng and Pierce are not comparable at all except for the position they played.

:lol: :lol:

Yeah, sometimes it's hard to tell when vegan is serious or sarcastic.

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veganfan21
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

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 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Jbi11s wrote:
He seriously could not dribble the basketball.

He seriously could. It's hard to become an NBA All Star without the ability to dribble a basketball.

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Zippy-The-Pinhead
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:30 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Overrated by you and FF?...yes.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:30 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

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Jbi11s
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:31 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
He seriously could not dribble the basketball.

He seriously could. It's hard to become an NBA All Star without the ability to dribble a basketball.

Dribbling isn’t a requirement to make the all star team in the eastern conference.

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veganfan21
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:31 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:32 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Overrated by you and FF?...yes.

I'm fine with that (agree to disagree) as long as you're fine acknowledging vegan has a point on the top 25 comment being just ridiculous.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:32 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

I was about to make a Rodman comment until I reread the 5 year minimum thing.

I think that list is reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:33 pm 
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Jbi11s wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
He seriously could not dribble the basketball.

He seriously could. It's hard to become an NBA All Star without the ability to dribble a basketball.

Dribbling isn’t a requirement to make the all star team in the eastern conference.

It is.

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RFDC
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:34 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

I was about to make a Rodman comment until I reread the 5 year minimum thing.

I think that list is reasonable.


Replace Grant with Kukoc

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veganfan21
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:34 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

I was about to make a Rodman comment until I reread the 5 year minimum thing.

I think that list is reasonable.


And if you stretch the period back I can't see 18 or whatever players sliding in ahead of Deng. Sloan? Gilmore? Love? Van Lier? Who else?

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veganfan21
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:35 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

I was about to make a Rodman comment until I reread the 5 year minimum thing.

I think that list is reasonable.


Replace Grant with Kukoc


Kukoc is 1 on my personal list. Avatar says it all.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:37 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

I was about to make a Rodman comment until I reread the 5 year minimum thing.

I think that list is reasonable.


Replace Grant with Kukoc

I will not

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Zippy-The-Pinhead
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:41 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

You are clearly young so I’ll allow for the fact that your basis is limited. You picked the criteria in a way that changes my statement. I go back to the early 70s so top 25 includes Love, Walker, Sloan, Norm, Artis and Theus. Some would include Boerwinkle although I wasn’t a big fan. Mickey Johnson was arguably better as a bull than Deng too.

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 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:41 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
We sure Patrick Williams isn't Kawhi Leonard 2.0? Let me grab another beer and think more on this.

He's long, athletic, and a good defender. It's about skills, not if he started in college as a freshman. Hell, who knows if he'll be any good, I'm just relieved they didn't trade up for Ball or Wiseman.

Remember when the Celtics traded down and took Tatum? Lonzo and Fultz were taken ahead of him. That was also the draft with Bam and Mitchell in the teens. So you never know.
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 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
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NME wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:




‘Character’ and ‘work ethic’ are code for ‘not very good’

Sounds like a white guy from a mid-major!

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 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:42 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

You are clearly young so I’ll allow for the fact that your basis is limited. You picked the criteria in a way that changes my statement. I go back to the early 70s so top 25 includes Love, Walker, Sloan, Norm, Artis and Theus. Some would include Boerwinkle although I wasn’t a big fan. Mickey Johnson was arguably better as a bull than Deng too.

Mickey Johnson? Come the fuck on.

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 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:42 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

I was about to make a Rodman comment until I reread the 5 year minimum thing.

I think that list is reasonable.

Reasonable given the criteria sure.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:42 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
NME wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:




‘Character’ and ‘work ethic’ are code for ‘not very good’

Sounds like a white guy from a mid-major!

Also sounds like Kawhi Leonard.

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Zippy-The-Pinhead
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:43 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

You are clearly young so I’ll allow for the fact that your basis is limited. You picked the criteria in a way that changes my statement. I go back to the early 70s so top 25 includes Love, Walker, Sloan, Norm, Artis and Theus. Some would include Boerwinkle although I wasn’t a big fan. Mickey Johnson was arguably better as a bull than Deng too.

Mickey Johnson? Come the fuck on.
Better scorer and rebounder. And I’m pretty certain you never saw him so why are you arguing?

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veganfan21
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

You are clearly young so I’ll allow for the fact that your basis is limited. You picked the criteria in a way that changes my statement. I go back to the early 70s so top 25 includes Love, Walker, Sloan, Norm, Artis and Theus. Some would include Boerwinkle although I wasn’t a big fan. Mickey Johnson was arguably better as a bull than Deng too.


I'll take your word for it on those players but it's still not adding up to 24 players being better than Deng.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

You are clearly young so I’ll allow for the fact that your basis is limited. You picked the criteria in a way that changes my statement. I go back to the early 70s so top 25 includes Love, Walker, Sloan, Norm, Artis and Theus. Some would include Boerwinkle although I wasn’t a big fan. Mickey Johnson was arguably better as a bull than Deng too.

Mickey Johnson? Come the fuck on.
Better scorer and rebounder. And I’m pretty certain you never saw him so why are you arguing?

Because I recognized the name and despite my age I know a lot about NBA history and realized you’re venturing into ridiculous territory now to try to make a point that isn’t a great one.

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Zippy-The-Pinhead
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:46 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

Noah's 4th on this list and Jimmy is 5th, if we're talking about their Bulls tenure.

Okay, accepted, but does zippy think this is reasonable? Sounds like you do.

I was about to make a Rodman comment until I reread the 5 year minimum thing.

I think that list is reasonable.


And if you stretch the period back I can't see 18 or whatever players sliding in ahead of Deng. Sloan? Gilmore? Love? Van Lier? Who else?

I thought about it and you’re correct that there’s not 18 better players. But my original comment was thrown out without giving it serious thought. I would agree that Deng is probably a top 15 Bull but still not great.

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Last edited by Zippy-The-Pinhead on Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Zippy-The-Pinhead
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:48 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy, you honestly think Deng is overrated? That's what it sounds like here. Forget words like "great". You said he's top 25 historically in Chicago. Just from the past 30 years I think that's way off. Minimum 5 years in Chicago:

Jordan
Pippen
Rose
Butler
Grant?
Noah or Deng

You are clearly young so I’ll allow for the fact that your basis is limited. You picked the criteria in a way that changes my statement. I go back to the early 70s so top 25 includes Love, Walker, Sloan, Norm, Artis and Theus. Some would include Boerwinkle although I wasn’t a big fan. Mickey Johnson was arguably better as a bull than Deng too.

Mickey Johnson? Come the fuck on.
Better scorer and rebounder. And I’m pretty certain you never saw him so why are you arguing?

Because I recognized the name and despite my age I know a lot about NBA history and realized you’re venturing into ridiculous territory now to try to make a point that isn’t a great one.

I watched Mickey for a few years while he was their best player. Yes the team sucked and yes I would not label him as being great under any context. Neither was Deng.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Patrick Williams
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:49 pm 
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I'm fine disagreeing on Deng but just don't pretend Mickey Johnson was a better basketball player. That's a fucking ridiculous statement.

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