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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:50 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
No, it's not. It's the widely accepted and logical definition.

If you're trying to win every game you are not tanking
So pretty much every NBA team is tanking then every year.

rogers park bryan wrote:
If you don't mind losing because it improves your draft position, its tanking. And most often it's just a one year thing targeting a certain player.
So, it's impossible to have a trade that isn't one side tanking then unless it's perfectly balanced?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:52 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
What type of voodoo math are you using Brick? They were 27-55 that year and your conception of tanking is rather skewed to put it lightly.

You also contradict yourself by stating that they " weren't going to win that year".

This is all the more reason that I know I am correct about this.
Nothing here contradicted anything I said.

Bad team with Theus trades Theus and continues to be a bad team doesn't mean they were tanking.

Once again, if this was tanking, then any trade where you get less good for the very next game is "tanking".

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:53 pm 
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Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
How isn't this tanking?
Tanking involves intentionally losing for 1, but most likely more than 1 season in order to be good some point in the future. Trading away your best player during the season when you've proven you aren't going to be good this year is not tanking.


You're wrong. With tanking teams aren't even making an attempt to try and win. It has nothing to do with whether it spans 1 or 2 seasons.

The Bulls first benched then traded their best player for absolutely nothing that season. They were in contention for a playoff spot at the time they traded him.

They received nothing in return. Steve Johnson was a bum and everyone knew that he was a bum. The Bulls gave up on the season early on so that they could improve their draft position. Thats tanking.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:55 pm 
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Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, it's not. It's the widely accepted and logical definition.

If you're trying to win every game you are not tanking
So pretty much every NBA team is tanking then every year.

rogers park bryan wrote:
If you don't mind losing because it improves your draft position, its tanking. And most often it's just a one year thing targeting a certain player.
So, it's impossible to have a trade that isn't one side tanking then unless it's perfectly balanced?

If both teams believe it will help them win in the short term then it's not tanking

If amy part of the process involves the benefits of "improving draft position", its tanking

This is very simple stuff


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:55 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
You're wrong. With tanking teams aren't even making an attempt to try and win. It has nothing to do with whether it spans 1 or 2 seasons.

The Bulls first benched then traded their best player for absolutely nothing that season. They were in contention for a playoff spot at the time they traded him.

They received nothing in return. Steve Johnson was a bum and everyone knew that he was a bum. The Bulls gave up on the season early on so that they could improve their draft position. Thats tanking.
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons.

Every NBA trade is tanking then unless it happens to make both teams better immediately.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:58 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons.

How did the Theus trade improve the team?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:58 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
If both teams believe it will help them win in the short term then it's not tanking

If amy part of the process involves the benefits of "improving draft position", its tanking

This is very simple stuff
Go ahead and use your definition.

My definition of tanking includes it happening for more than about 1/3rd of one season. I'm fine if you think it's tanking to realize that you won't make the playoffs in a year and you adjust accordingly to make the playoffs the next year.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:59 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons.

How did the Theus trade improve the team?

They got 3 draft picks in return. Draft picks can help improve a team by getting better players.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:00 pm 
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Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
You're wrong. With tanking teams aren't even making an attempt to try and win. It has nothing to do with whether it spans 1 or 2 seasons.

The Bulls first benched then traded their best player for absolutely nothing that season. They were in contention for a playoff spot at the time they traded him.

They received nothing in return. Steve Johnson was a bum and everyone knew that he was a bum. The Bulls gave up on the season early on so that they could improve their draft position. Thats tanking.
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons..

Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.

Anyway, yea were at the who cares part of this. Happy Friday!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:02 pm 
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Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons.

How did the Theus trade improve the team?

They got 3 draft picks in return. Draft picks can help improve a team by getting better players.


:lol: 3 2nd round picks and a Journeyman Center for an NBA,All Star.

Again I ask you. How did it improve the team?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:03 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.
You will find very few in season trades that are completely independent of draft positioning.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons.

How did the Theus trade improve the team?

They got 3 draft picks in return. Draft picks can help improve a team by getting better players.


:lol: 3 2nd round picks and a Journeyman Center for an NBA,All Star.

Again I ask you. How did it improve the team?
They got 3 draft picks in return. Draft picks can help improve a team by getting better players.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.
You will find very few in season trades that are completely independent of draft positioning.


Ok so they tanked. Glad we can agree.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:05 pm 
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Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons.

How did the Theus trade improve the team?

They got 3 draft picks in return. Draft picks can help improve a team by getting better players.


:lol: 3 2nd round picks and a Journeyman Center for an NBA,All Star.

Again I ask you. How did it improve the team?
They got 3 draft picks in return. Draft picks can help improve a team by getting better players.


Ok so the trade didn't improve the team. Another thing we can agree on.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:05 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.
You will find very few in season trades that are completely independent of draft positioning.


Ok so they tanked. Glad we can agree.

If you set the definition of tanking to "Any trade that doesn't make you better for the next game you play" then yes.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:06 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
So is this really LTG?

Can we get a confirmation on this?

Pretty sure it is

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:07 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
So is this really LTG?

Can we get a confirmation on this?

Pretty sure it is

:lol: yeah after seeing a few more replies it does appear so

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:08 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RFDC wrote:
So is this really LTG?

Can we get a confirmation on this?

Pretty sure it is

:lol: yeah after seeing a few more replies it does appear so

Has he posted 5 times in a row in the same thread yet?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:09 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
How isn't this tanking?
Tanking involves intentionally losing for 1, but most likely more than 1 season in order to be good some point in the future.

That's a weird definition you have cultivated in an attempt to isolate Theo as the tanker in chief

Tanking: Not trying to win as much as possible because it helps your draft position

Its that simple. If the Bulls reason for trading Theus inuded any reasoning about the draft, it was tanking.

I don't think this is true at all. Rick's definition is a lot closer to the traditional idea of tanking. Trading a veteran who isn't part of your long term plans during a lost season isn't tanking. It's team building. Benching a healthy veteran for the sole purpose of losing a game is tanking.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:11 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, it's not. It's the widely accepted and logical definition.

If you're trying to win every game you are not tanking
So pretty much every NBA team is tanking then every year.

rogers park bryan wrote:
If you don't mind losing because it improves your draft position, its tanking. And most often it's just a one year thing targeting a certain player.
So, it's impossible to have a trade that isn't one side tanking then unless it's perfectly balanced?

If both teams believe it will help them win in the short term then it's not tanking

If amy part of the process involves the benefits of "improving draft position", its tanking

This is very simple stuff

It's not simple. It's absurd. By your definition the Raiders were tanking when they traded Khalil Mack, even though it clearly helped their long term outlook and they were still trying to win games the following year.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:12 pm 
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Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.
You will find very few in season trades that are completely independent of draft positioning.


Ok so they tanked. Glad we can agree.

If you set the definition of tanking to "Any trade that doesn't make you better for the next game you play" then yes.


You still haven't explained how this particular trade improved the team.

They were 21-27 and in contention for a playoff berth with Theus.

They benched him early (their best player) only to trade him later.

They finished 6-27 after the trade. They received nothing in return for him.

They tanked.


Last edited by Liberal Lion on Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:12 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
You're wrong. With tanking teams aren't even making an attempt to try and win. It has nothing to do with whether it spans 1 or 2 seasons.

The Bulls first benched then traded their best player for absolutely nothing that season. They were in contention for a playoff spot at the time they traded him.

They received nothing in return. Steve Johnson was a bum and everyone knew that he was a bum. The Bulls gave up on the season early on so that they could improve their draft position. Thats tanking.
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons..

Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking.

:lol: :lol:

This is ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:13 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.
You will find very few in season trades that are completely independent of draft positioning.


Ok so they tanked. Glad we can agree.

If you set the definition of tanking to "Any trade that doesn't make you better for the next game you play" then yes.


You still haven't explained how this particular trade improved the team.

They were 21-27 and in contention for a playoff berth with Theus.

They benched him early (their best player) only to trade him later.

They finished 6-27 after the trade. They received nothing in return for him.

They tanked.

Patently false :lol:

You literally have to lie about the trade compensation to even begin making an argument the trade was tanking

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:14 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
You're wrong. With tanking teams aren't even making an attempt to try and win. It has nothing to do with whether it spans 1 or 2 seasons.

The Bulls first benched then traded their best player for absolutely nothing that season. They were in contention for a playoff spot at the time they traded him.

They received nothing in return. Steve Johnson was a bum and everyone knew that he was a bum. The Bulls gave up on the season early on so that they could improve their draft position. Thats tanking.
The Bulls entered that season trying to win, discovered that wasn't going to happen, and made a trade to correct that for future seasons..

Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking.

:lol: :lol:

This is ridiculous.


No it isn't. He's right. They tanked in order to put themselves in position to receive the number 1 pick that year.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:15 pm 
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When the Vikings traded Yannick Ngakoue to the Ravens, was it tanking? If the answer is yes, why didn't anyone tell the players and coaches on Minnesota?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:16 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.
You will find very few in season trades that are completely independent of draft positioning.


Ok so they tanked. Glad we can agree.

If you set the definition of tanking to "Any trade that doesn't make you better for the next game you play" then yes.


You still haven't explained how this particular trade improved the team.

They were 21-27 and in contention for a playoff berth with Theus.

They benched him early (their best player) only to trade him later.

They finished 6-27 after the trade. They received nothing in return for him.

They tanked.

Patently false :lol:

You literally have to lie about the trade compensation to even begin making an argument the trade was tanking


You're receiving quite the history lesson on Bulls hoops the past few days.

Don't let your ignorance show FF. They got nothing out of that trade.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:16 pm 
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Anyway, more important than "Is _____ tanking" is that we can all acknowledge that tanking is a disgrace to the sport and in a just world would be severely penalized by the leagues.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:19 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Anyway, more important than "Is _____ tanking" is that we can all acknowledge that tanking is a disgrace to the sport and in a just world would be severely penalized by the leagues.


If people really believed this then the Bulls franchise would be far more reviled than they happen to be.

We celebrate the hell out of those 6 rings and not one person has ever made mention of the tank job that went into acquiring them. Until now of course.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:20 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Anyway, more important than "Is _____ tanking" is that we can all acknowledge that tanking is a disgrace to the sport and in a just world would be severely penalized by the leagues.


If people really believe this then the Bulls franchise would be far more reviled than they happen to be.

We celebrate the hell out of those 6 rings and not one person has ever made mention of the tank job that went into achieving it. Until now of course.

That’s because they didn’t tank.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:21 pm 
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Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
Liberal Lion wrote:
Brick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Did it have anything to do with improving draft position? If yes, then tanking. If it's completely independent of draft positioning then it's not.
You will find very few in season trades that are completely independent of draft positioning.


Ok so they tanked. Glad we can agree.

If you set the definition of tanking to "Any trade that doesn't make you better for the next game you play" then yes.


You still haven't explained how this particular trade improved the team.

They were 21-27 and in contention for a playoff berth with Theus.

They benched him early (their best player) only to trade him later.

They finished 6-27 after the trade. They received nothing in return for him.

They tanked.

It didn't improve the team for the final 33 games where they weren't going to be making the playoffs anyways. That's never been in question. I don't believe it is tanking to look at your team for that year and realize that while you tried to win for the first 2/3rd of the year that it isn't going to work this year.

Once again, your idea of tanking is that it is tanking to do any trade that doesn't make your team better for the very next game. Any forward thinking is tanking.

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