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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:03 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
They dominated Little League for the past decade.



And then the 12 year old Cubans and Americans grew to be 6'3" while the Japanese guys stayed 5'6".

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:06 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
They dominated Little League for the past decade.



And then the 12 year old Cubans and Americans grew to be 6'3" while the Japanese guys stayed 5'6".

That's a legit problem. The Japanese need to go see Tiger's doctor in Germany.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:10 am 
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Nardi wrote:
tommy wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
As much as I love baseball, I've never put much stock in the pre 1947 numbers for what was a flawed game all around. I love the stories but don't respect any of the numbers. They mean nothing. Starting with Cy Young's win total. It's b.s. and so outsized that it's never talked about.

I would agree with the soft version of this argument. I think there were some Black players (they called them "Chief" and "Babe"). The pre-1900 numbers seem a little silly, but the problem is that you can say that about the dead ball era, and then again about the 20s and 30s (the rabbit ball), and then during WWII. It seems like that argument says that it wasn't "real" baseball.

Yet the game would have been significantly better with Negro League stars. I wonder which owners would have had the balls to sign a bunch of them? (Bill Veeck always wanted to, even when he was with the cubs, who suck balls.)

Cy Young and a few others are aberrations. But at least he knew how to stay healthy. Not sure how hard he threw, but there was a reason they called young Denton "Cyclone." But I do wish the award was the Walter Johnson award.

The game's best player played back then, too. And unlike Bonds, he wasn't the product of his era (steroids); he created his own era, like YHWH, out of nothing. The rest of the league (with the exception of the White Sox) caught on.

Generally, Negro league pitching could never catch up to the hitting. It was bad. I don't doubt Gibson had 800+.

Small stadiums, maybe, too. As for pitching, I have always wondered if coaching and training helped the White players. Obviously, big league teams didn't have the staffs they have today, and there weren't that many college players in the game back then, but most had two coaches, and they must have had some time to devote to pitchers. (Some coaches were probably do-nothing vets; also, I don't think anyone had pitching coaches until the 40s.) From what I read about the Negro Leagues, the coaches were usually also players, team bus drivers, marketers, security guards, equipment managers, and the glue that held everything together. So maybe that accounts for the dearth of Negro League pitching legends, though at lower levels, minor league managers would have had the same roles. I have always wondered about this.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:12 am 
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I love this thread. I'll shut up, though.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:18 am 
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Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
They dominated Little League for the past decade.



And then the 12 year old Cubans and Americans grew to be 6'3" while the Japanese guys stayed 5'6".

That's a legit problem. The Japanese need to go see Tiger's doctor in Germany.

I’d rather not encourage those two peoples to work together more often, thank you very much.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:38 am 
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tommy wrote:
Nardi wrote:
tommy wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
As much as I love baseball, I've never put much stock in the pre 1947 numbers for what was a flawed game all around. I love the stories but don't respect any of the numbers. They mean nothing. Starting with Cy Young's win total. It's b.s. and so outsized that it's never talked about.

I would agree with the soft version of this argument. I think there were some Black players (they called them "Chief" and "Babe"). The pre-1900 numbers seem a little silly, but the problem is that you can say that about the dead ball era, and then again about the 20s and 30s (the rabbit ball), and then during WWII. It seems like that argument says that it wasn't "real" baseball.

Yet the game would have been significantly better with Negro League stars. I wonder which owners would have had the balls to sign a bunch of them? (Bill Veeck always wanted to, even when he was with the cubs, who suck balls.)

Cy Young and a few others are aberrations. But at least he knew how to stay healthy. Not sure how hard he threw, but there was a reason they called young Denton "Cyclone." But I do wish the award was the Walter Johnson award.

The game's best player played back then, too. And unlike Bonds, he wasn't the product of his era (steroids); he created his own era, like YHWH, out of nothing. The rest of the league (with the exception of the White Sox) caught on.

Generally, Negro league pitching could never catch up to the hitting. It was bad. I don't doubt Gibson had 800+.

Small stadiums, maybe, too. As for pitching, I have always wondered if coaching and training helped the White players. Obviously, big league teams didn't have the staffs they have today, and there weren't that many college players in the game back then, but most had two coaches, and they must have had some time to devote to pitchers. (Some coaches were probably do-nothing vets; also, I don't think anyone had pitching coaches until the 40s.) From what I read about the Negro Leagues, the coaches were usually also players, team bus drivers, marketers, security guards, equipment managers, and the glue that held everything together. So maybe that accounts for the dearth of Negro League pitching legends, though at lower levels, minor league managers would have had the same roles. I have always wondered about this.

I'm imagining in the negro league, if you threw hard, they put you on the mound, and that was pretty much the extent of it. The right fielder was also a pitcher. You have to remember, the league didn't get mainstream popular until the '40s, and it was over a decade later. Tough to develop front line specialist pitching on a dollar a day. I don't doubt there were high ceiling guys throwing the rock but imagine the pool of monsters with bats in those days.

The top 2 things I wish I could have seen in baseball is a 1908 game and a 1946 Negro League game.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:37 pm 
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The different eras debate is always one of the better recurring ones on here, almost always led by Brick and JORR. I have nothing but respect for the past eras. If old timers want to pretend that Mikan would have the first fuckin clue what to do with Anthony Davis I say more power to em

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:39 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
The different eras debate is always one of the better recurring ones on here, almost always led by Brick and JORR. I have nothing but respect for the past eras. If old timers want to pretend that Mikan would have the first fuckin clue what to do with Anthony Davis I say more power to em


:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:46 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
They dominated Little League for the past decade.



And then the 12 year old Cubans and Americans grew to be 6'3" while the Japanese guys stayed 5'6".

That's a legit problem. The Japanese need to go see Tiger's doctor in Germany.


Size is a big limitation. There have been some great small horses, most famously Good Time. Due to my limited budget I bought a lot of small horses. I had some good ones, but the guys with unlimited cash weren't looking at them. There's a saying in the business- "It's better to have a good big horse than a good small horse."

I have a friend who was a really good high school baseball player in the 70s at Bloom. He's about 5'10". He hit a ball off the wall at old Comiskey during a tournament when it was 440 to center. In high school he got hits off Steve Trout and Bill Gullickson. When he went down to SIU he had the thought that he could walk on the baseball team. They had him run the bases during the tryouts and he was reasonably fast but then came these 6'5" guys from California and they ran just a little faster than he did. Dave Stieb was an outfielder on the team.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:37 pm 
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Dave Stieb was flithy. As was Steve Rogers.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:55 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Dave Stieb was flithy. As was Steve Rogers.

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:28 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Brick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Brick wrote:
It's that the average player he was playing against was far worse than it is now.


And I disagree with that. The average player now is on better drugs.
Aren't you arguing that Babe Ruth was as athletic as Barry Bonds?



More athletic.

Here's one of those tiny and weak white guys from the 50s who could never hold his own against the power of P.K. Subban:

Image

More attracitve than Ryan Phillipe


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:30 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Dave Stieb was flithy. As was Steve Rogers.

Best era of baseball for me


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:50 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Brick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Brick wrote:
It's that the average player he was playing against was far worse than it is now.


And I disagree with that. The average player now is on better drugs.
Aren't you arguing that Babe Ruth was as athletic as Barry Bonds?



More athletic.

Here's one of those tiny and weak white guys from the 50s who could never hold his own against the power of P.K. Subban:

Image

More attracitve than Ryan Phillipe

Sunken chest and shadows making biceps look big. Would not.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:36 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Dave Stieb was flithy. As was Steve Rogers.

Sounds like someone's got a Canada fetish.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:54 pm 
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(At the risk of sounding like Hawaiiyou) I just watched Bob Gibson and Denny McClain jam on an old episode of Ed Sullivan. HOF indeed. :drunken:

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