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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
He picked up Johnson and Edmonds out of necessity- Pie sucked.

I'm not saying he is a bad GM, but Williams > Hendry.

Darkside, you gave us 2 good moves he made- Aram and Lee, kudos, they were good moves. Rick and I rattled off about a dozengood moves Kenny has made.

And, after all, who picked Dusty?

Well shit Frank the Cubs lead the National league and are what a game back on the MLB lead?
The whole team is engineered by Hendry with the exception of Wood. So who were the other big moves?
Jeff Samardzija.
Geo Soto
Theriot (could be considered an MVP candidate)
Nice fuckin trade for Rich Harden
Let us not forget that Pinella was an awesome signing in place of Crusty
Moving Wood to the Bullpen
Moving Dempster to the starter role
Signing guys like Ward (underappreciated)
Signing guys like Neil Cotts, who has been pretty good with the Cubs since he was traded from the Sox, How did aardsma work out?
Knowing enough to dump Pie early and get Edmonds and Johnson
In his tenure, two divisional titles and this year sure has all the makings of a successful season.


Yeah he picked Dusty. He was a GM for all of 5 months when he Signed Dusty and given his track record at the time he was a decent choice. We loved that guy for about a year.

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SteveSarley
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:42 pm 
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Frank C wrote:
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Far be it for Sarley to give credit where credit is due


I beg your pardon?
I agreed that Ramirez is an excellent player.
I said I wouldn't attempt to compare Hendry and Williams.
Are you saying that I won't give YOU any credit?
Write something lucid that has some value and I will make an
attempt to give you credit for it.
Have a great day!

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:44 pm 
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No, give Kenny Williams credit.

Oh wait, we're all just insecure Sox fans. Think I'll go ahead and be insecure as hell while watching my 2005 World Series DVD.

Darlyle Ward? :lol: :lol:

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:45 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Quote:
Speaking of selling the future, please take a look at the contract of Soriano.


I don't understand.
He is playing like an MVP.
They didn't give anyone up for him.
They have him for 5 more years.
Doesn't that mean that he IS the future?

He's not an MVP.

I won't argue now since it's speculation, but his contract will be worse than Konerko's in a few years. If you expect Soriano to continue to play like he has for 5 more years you disagree with most baseball people.

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SteveSarley
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Wear that DVD out, Frank.
I'm sure that watching it will be the only highlight
of your baseball-watching life for a long, long time.
Enjoy!

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:48 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Wear that DVD out, Frank.
I'm sure that watching it will be the only highlight
of your baseball-watching life for a long, long time.
Enjoy!

Don't be so insecure.

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Hendry should get some credit for signing Dempster in the first place. He pulled him off the scrap heap.

This would be 3 playoff appearances in 6 years. That's about 20 years worth of success compared to prior to his tenure.

Hendry is a good GM.

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SteveSarley
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Quote:
If you expect Soriano to continue to play like he has for 5 more years you disagree with most baseball people.


I guess if you mean "most baseball people" to be Sox fans posting on message boards.

Please respond to what you wrote about mortgaging the future by signing Soriano.
It didn't make sense when you wrote it and it doesn't make any more sense now.

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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:50 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Darlyle Ward? :lol: :lol:

Yeah, dumbass, Ward. Do you actually know anything about baseball or do you just make shit up?

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Soriano as an MVP and Daryle Ward with his .200 avg are parts of the side of the argument that Hendry is better than Williams?

I didn't realize Harry Teinowitz posted here.

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SteveSarley
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Quote:
Don't be so insecure.


Insecurity is always having to fall back on 2005.
It wears off after a while.
Whne the Bears go 4 & 12 this season, will you take
solace by saying, "Yeah, but I'm watching my
"Super Bowl Shuffle VHS?"

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:55 pm 
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I think it's funny that Sox fans want soooo badly for Soriano to do poorly on his contract.

It must be killing them that he's leading them to a possible World Series in only the second year.

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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:56 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Soriano as an MVP and Daryle Ward with his .200 avg are parts of the side of the argument that Hendry is better than Williams?

I didn't realize Harry Teinowitz posted here.

First of all, his batting average tells 1/100th of his story and worth.
Frankie, there's more to him than that one stat.
I like you and I do defend you quite a bit but you should know better than to look at a batting average and let that determine a players worth.
His .430 something OBP and .500 something slugging percentage had a lot to do with the Cubs success last year, and he's had a few HUGE hits this year that won games. We don't have a faggy DH in the NL so all this guy gets is a few spot starts and a pinch hit situation occationally. He hits well for being in that hard to deal with position.

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Brian's Mojito
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:56 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Hendry picked up Reed and Edmonds out of necessity.
So why did Williams pick up Ramirez?
Deep-seated willingness to make a Cuban refugee into a millionaire?
Beardown said that the Garland for Cabrera trade was fine because of the unexpected
emergence of some of the other young pitchers.
Is that how Kenny makes trades?
It's all right to make a lopsidedly bad trade if some rookies
come up out of nowhere to cover your ass?
I think not.
I won't bash Williams or even try to compare him to Hendry.
Just remember that all of this started when some Cub fan decided
he'd like to give kudos to Ramirez.
As usual, a bunch of insecure Sox fans have turned the thread
into a train wreck.


I believe Elmhurst Steve was the initial poster to have his undies in a bunch. He reacted after a comment was made about Williams.

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SteveSarley
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:57 pm 
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FC posted:

Quote:
Soriano as an MVP and Daryle Ward with his .200 avg are parts of the side of the argument that Hendry is better than Williams? I didn't realize Harry Teinowitz posted here.


Yeah, Riles, Harry, we're all here!
Frank, as far as insecurity goes, you are the Captain Queeg of this message board.

Yes, Soriano is most likely the MVP of the team with the best record in baseball.
Ward is having a bad year but he too is a member of the team with the best record in baseball.
Couldn't answer Darko's comment about Aardsma, huh?

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:59 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Quote:
If you expect Soriano to continue to play like he has for 5 more years you disagree with most baseball people.


I guess if you mean "most baseball people" to be Sox fans posting on message boards.

Please respond to what you wrote about mortgaging the future by signing Soriano.
It didn't make sense when you wrote it and it doesn't make any more sense now.

Ok, here goes.

Soriano is being paid for the next 5 years as a top ten player. He really isn't even one now. He's probably not the best player on the Cubs. He's injury prone and will probably see significant time on the DL for most years of that contract. Even in a league with no salary cap, every team has a limit on the amount of payroll they want. They'll be paying him a large sum of money for a large decrease in production.

I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you, but it will. Soriano's contract has the potential to be a major waste of money in a few years, especially if someone considers Paul Konerko to be one now.

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WestmontMike
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:00 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Just remember that all of this started when some Cub fan decided
he'd like to give kudos to Ramirez.
As usual, a bunch of insecure Sox fans have turned the thread
into a train wreck.


Actually the GM debate started after Frank made a comment that Kenny is the best GM in the city. That statement alone is simply a positive statement about the GM of the White Sox. No mention of any other team, no negativety. The cub fans took this as an opportunity to discount Kenny's good moves and bring up their GM and how there's no doubt Hendry is the best GM.

BTW...Alexei Ramirez, good.
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Brick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:01 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Quote:
Don't be so insecure.


Insecurity is always having to fall back on 2005.
It wears off after a while.
Whne the Bears go 4 & 12 this season, will you take
solace by saying, "Yeah, but I'm watching my
"Super Bowl Shuffle VHS?"

Insecurity is getting so up and arms about someone making a statement backed up by a large amount of evidence.

Hendry is good. Williams is better. End of story.

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:03 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I think it's funny that Sox fans want soooo badly for Soriano to do poorly on his contract.

It must be killing them that he's leading them to a possible World Series in only the second year.

It's not a bad contract now. It will be in 2-3 years.

Soriano's contract was only brought up as a counter to the Paul Konerko's contract is terrible now.

You don't honestly expect Soriano to be worth what he is owed in 3 years do you?

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:03 pm 
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Soriano isn't even the highest paid player on the Cubs this year...

Code:
 Zambrano, Carlos  $ 16,000,000                               Pitcher 
   Ramirez, Aramis  $ 15,000,000                               Third Baseman 
   Soriano, Alfonso  $ 14,000,000                               Outfielder 
   Lee, Derrek  $ 13,250,000                               First Baseman 
   Lilly, Ted  $ 8,000,000                               Pitcher 
   Dempster, Ryan  $ 7,333,333                               Pitcher 
   Fukudome, Kosuke  $ 7,000,000                               Outfielder 
   Marquis, Jason  $ 6,375,000                               Pitcher 
   De Rosa, Mark  $ 4,750,000                               Second Baseman 
   Howry, Bobby  $ 4,500,000                               Pitcher 
   Wood, Kerry  $ 4,200,000                               Pitcher 
   Eyre, Scott  $ 3,800,000                               Pitcher 
   Lieber, Jon  $ 3,500,000                               Pitcher 
   Blanco, Henry  $ 3,175,000                               Catcher 
   Johnson, Reed  $ 1,300,000                               Outfielder 
   Ward, Daryle  $ 1,200,000                               First Baseman 

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:06 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I think it's funny that Sox fans want soooo badly for Soriano to do poorly on his contract.

It must be killing them that he's leading them to a possible World Series in only the second year.

It's not a bad contract now. It will be in 2-3 years.

Soriano's contract was only brought up as a counter to the Paul Konerko's contract is terrible now.

You don't honestly expect Soriano to be worth what he is owed in 3 years do you?


If his production goes down toward the end, they will cut ties, eat some of the contract and pay a higher average salary per year of Cub production. But, it would presumably be worth it assuming they can continue to make the playoffs and possibly win championships.

Hendry gets to play with more monopoly money than Williams does. He can afford to buy some things. But, the plus side of the recent success is that they are finally doing it with some younger, developed talent that comes cheap and allows them to make deals like this.

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Keyser Soze
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Jim Hendry should thank Kenny Williams. After the Sox won the World Series in '05 and the cubs were a joke in '06 the lemmings stopped showing up for games and they actually demanded a winner. The corporate wonks figured they couldn't run a .500 team out there anymore so they opened up the wallet and let Hendry spend like a drunkin sailor. The cubs wouldn't have such a sense of urgency if not for Kenny Williams and the White Sox.
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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Soriano is being paid for the next 5 years as a top ten player. He really isn't even one now. He's probably not the best player on the Cubs. He's injury prone and will probably see significant time on the DL for most years of that contract. Even in a league with no salary cap, every team has a limit on the amount of payroll they want. They'll be paying him a large sum of money for a large decrease in production.

I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you, but it will. Soriano's contract has the potential to be a major waste of money in a few years, especially if someone considers Paul Konerko to be one now.

I am not so sure it's fair to call him injury prone. He was only down for 15 games this year, until hit by a pitch from a fuckin head hunting team where he broke his hand. That's not poor conditioning or proneness, that's getting hit by a pitch.
He's played in over 150 games in 6 of 8 years as a daily player.

Other than that he's been pretty good offensively for the cubs, and defensively, while lacking some outfield skills, he fuckin been MOWING them down with his arm out there.
He's slugging 557 this year, 560 last year, which are the two highest slugging percentages of his career.
Now his quad is healthy again, he's stealing again.
He's only 31. He's got 5 years left in the tank. His eye might just get better. lots of sluggers get better as they hit their 30's you should know that.

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Hawkeye Vince
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:08 pm 
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Soriano isn't this year but his contract is heavily backloaded.

Alfonso Soriano of
8 years/$136M (2007-14)
signed as a free agent 11/06
$8M signing bonus
07:$9M, 08:$13M, 09:$16M, 10-14:$18M annually
full no-trade clause

Similar backloaded deals:
Carlos Zambrano rhp5 years/$91.5M (2008-12), plus 2013 vesting option
signed extension 8/17/07
$5M signing bonus
08:$15M, 09:$17.75M, 10:$17.875M, 11:$17.875M, 12:$18M, 13:$19.25M vesting player option
full no-trade clause

Ted Lilly lhp
4 years/$40M (2007-10)
signed as a free agent 12/06
$4M signing bonus (paid 1/07)
07:$5M, 08:$7M, 09:$12M, 10:$12M

Kosuke Fukudome of
4 years/$48M (2008-11)
signed 12/12/07 as a free agent from Japan (Chunichi)
$4M signing bonus
08:$6M, 09:$11.5M, 10:$13M, 11:$13.5M
no-trade protection

Jason Marquis rhp
3 years/$21M (2007-09)
signed as a free agent 12/06
07:$4.75M, 08:$6.375M, 09:$9.875M
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Brian's Mojito
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:08 pm 
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I've heard more Cubs fans squawk about Soriano's play than White Sox fans root against the left fielder.

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RFDC
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If Soriano is not even the highest paid Cub how in the world is he being paid like he is a Top 10 player????

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:10 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Soriano isn't even the highest paid player on the Cubs this year...

Code:
 Zambrano, Carlos  $ 16,000,000                               Pitcher 
   Ramirez, Aramis  $ 15,000,000                               Third Baseman 
   Soriano, Alfonso  $ 14,000,000                               Outfielder 
   Lee, Derrek  $ 13,250,000                               First Baseman 
   Lilly, Ted  $ 8,000,000                               Pitcher 
   Dempster, Ryan  $ 7,333,333                               Pitcher 
   Fukudome, Kosuke  $ 7,000,000                               Outfielder 
   Marquis, Jason  $ 6,375,000                               Pitcher 
   De Rosa, Mark  $ 4,750,000                               Second Baseman 
   Howry, Bobby  $ 4,500,000                               Pitcher 
   Wood, Kerry  $ 4,200,000                               Pitcher 
   Eyre, Scott  $ 3,800,000                               Pitcher 
   Lieber, Jon  $ 3,500,000                               Pitcher 
   Blanco, Henry  $ 3,175,000                               Catcher 
   Johnson, Reed  $ 1,300,000                               Outfielder 
   Ward, Daryle  $ 1,200,000                               First Baseman 

The point is not that Soriano is overpaid this year. He's not.
The point is that he will be severely overpaid in a few years, unless he somehow finds a way not to make constant DL appearances.
I would expect both Ramirez and Zambrano to still be high level performers in 4 years. I don't expect it with Soriano. I expect Soriano to be only capable of playing DH in 3 years. That doesn't help the Cubs much.

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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:11 pm 
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Lilly is another example of Hendry making a great signing.
Almost forgot that one.


Can't the Sox fans agree that this year the Cubs are a deeper, better balanced team?

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WestmontMike
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:12 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Soriano isn't even the highest paid player on the Cubs this year...

Code:
 Zambrano, Carlos  $ 16,000,000                               Pitcher 
   Ramirez, Aramis  $ 15,000,000                               Third Baseman 
   Soriano, Alfonso  $ 14,000,000                               Outfielder 
   Lee, Derrek  $ 13,250,000                               First Baseman 
   Lilly, Ted  $ 8,000,000                               Pitcher 
   Dempster, Ryan  $ 7,333,333                               Pitcher 
   Fukudome, Kosuke  $ 7,000,000                               Outfielder 
   Marquis, Jason  $ 6,375,000                               Pitcher 
   De Rosa, Mark  $ 4,750,000                               Second Baseman 
   Howry, Bobby  $ 4,500,000                               Pitcher 
   Wood, Kerry  $ 4,200,000                               Pitcher 
   Eyre, Scott  $ 3,800,000                               Pitcher 
   Lieber, Jon  $ 3,500,000                               Pitcher 
   Blanco, Henry  $ 3,175,000                               Catcher 
   Johnson, Reed  $ 1,300,000                               Outfielder 
   Ward, Daryle  $ 1,200,000                               First Baseman 


In 2009 it goes up to $16 million and then 2010-2014 he'll make $18 million per year. That's $18 million per year for a guy that'll be 34, 35 ,36, 37, 38 years old. Maybe they can trade him next year and bring up some of that great talent in the farm system to replace him.
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SteveSarley
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick,

As I have stated, I never sought to compare Hendry and Williams.
If you are such a fact zealot, why do you keep beating the drum
over an issue that is strictly based on opinion? Who the better GM
is cannot be proven factually and I don't care to waste my time
exchanging opinions.
Speaking of facts, though... Over the prior seven seasons, Soriano,
who you claim to be "injury prone," has averaged playing in 152 games a
a year. In fact, I believe he never was on the DL before hooking up
with the Cubs, yet you say he will probably "see significant time on the DL
for most years of that contract."
You say that , "They'll be paying him a large sum of money for a large
decrease in production.
"Factually" how can you assume he won't be worth his
money in 3 years just because Konerko fell apart?
Does your one isolated example hold true for everyone with a
contract longer than 3 years?.
By the way, it's a damn shame about Konerko. I really like the guy and
never dreamed his career would go downhill so quickly.

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