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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
I am not so sure it's fair to call him injury prone. He was only down for 15 games this year, until hit by a pitch from a fuckin head hunting team where he broke his hand. That's not poor conditioning or proneness, that's getting hit by a pitch.


I agree, getting HBP happens, but just like Ward, that doesn't tell the whole story. Last year he pulled a hammy and wasn't anywhere near 100% when the team needed him most. And those mere 15 games he was down for early this year was because he hops like a fucking idiot for every flybally he catches. The Cubs are lucky that hop has only cost them 15 games, and not a loss in a big game.


this argument isn't over cubs vs. Sox. This was me stating that Kenny Williams is the best GM in town right now, and Cub fans getting huffy because they love thier GM. The CUbs are a great team and probably should make the World Series. But that doesn't mean Hendry is better than Williams. He's not. Not now anyway.

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WestmontMike
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Lilly is another example of Hendry making a great signing.
Almost forgot that one.


Can't the Sox fans agree that this year the Cubs are a deeper, better balanced team?


Sure, but I don't think anyone was arguing that.
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Brick
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RFDC wrote:
If Soriano is not even the highest paid Cub how in the world is he being paid like he is a Top 10 player????

He's not this year, but over the length of the contract he is. You do realize how backloaded his contract is right?

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:15 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
Jim Hendry should thank Kenny Williams. After the Sox won the World Series in '05 and the cubs were a joke in '06 the lemmings stopped showing up for games and they actually demanded a winner. The corporate wonks figured they couldn't run a .500 team out there anymore so they opened up the wallet and let Hendry spend like a drunkin sailor. The cubs wouldn't have such a sense of urgency if not for Kenny Williams and the White Sox.


Code:
Chicago Cubs 
 
Year   Median salary                               Total Payroll
2008  $ 3,175,000                                     $ 118,345,833                                   
2007  $ 2,750,000                                     $ 99,670,332                                   
2006  $ 2,500,000                                     $ 94,424,499                                   
2005  $ 2,150,000                                     $ 87,032,933       

     

Chicago White Sox 
Year Median salary                                Total Payroll
2008  $ 1,950,000                                     $ 121,189,332                                   
2007  $ 2,325,000                                     $ 108,671,833                                   
2006  $ 2,325,000                                     $ 102,750,667                                   
2005  $ 2,000,000                                     $ 75,178,000   

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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:15 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Lilly is another example of Hendry making a great signing.
Almost forgot that one.


Can't the Sox fans agree that this year the Cubs are a deeper, better balanced team?


Sure, but I don't think anyone was arguing that.

So doesn't a deeper, better team mean that it was put together better?
You say who's the better GM?
I say, who's the better team? WHo's got more depth? WHo's got a better chance at winning their division, league, championship.

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Hawkeye Vince
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:16 pm 
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Between the 5 guys I posted, the Cubs payroll will increase by 19 million next season. They have some key free agents they will have to make decisions on like Wood and Dempster. Dempster (especially if he gets Cy Young votes) will probably be looking in the 12-15M range (up from 5M) and Wood as a closer that saves 40 games will be looking for 10M (up from 4M). Hendry will have new ownership likely that may not want to increase payroll by 30million in 2009. They have mortgaged the future for one season (like many have said about the Sox) because if they will need to get back to 2008 salary levels, they will need to move some of the higher priced guys and go on the cheap.
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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:17 pm 
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OK, if we're gonna bring Cubs Vs Sox payroll into this...

Thome is still being paid by the Phillies. Vazquez was being paid by the DBacks for 06 and 07.

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SteveSarley
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:18 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
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the cubs were a joke in '06 the lemmings stopped showing up for games and they actually demanded a winner.

I hate to bing up attendance, but what the hell are you talking about?
Wrigley attendance was over 3.1 million on 2006.
Where do you get your facts and knowledge of baseball - from Frank Coztansa?

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Last edited by SteveSarley on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Brick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:18 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Boilermaker Rick,

As I have stated, I never sought to compare Hendry and Williams.

Then why did you jump into a discussion, in the White Sox forum, that had escalated into Kenny vs. Hendry?

I never said it was proven factually, but I said it was backed up by facts. Kenny Williams has won a title. That is a fact.

As for Soriano, I never said it was a fact that he would be often injured. That is an opinion, but not a crazy one. He's been fairly injury prone the last couple years, and he is on the wrong side of 30.

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Chris_in_joliet
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I hate to say it but Kenny has done alot more with less than Hendry has. People didnt count the white sox to do anything. Show me an expert that said the Sox were going to be in the race, and Ill show you a liar. Nobody did. Everyone picked the Cubs or the Mets this year. Hendry had some great moves, but to pull an MVP caliber player out like Carlos from Diamondbacks thats what makes kenny a better GM.

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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:19 pm 
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Criminy Frank, the guy pulled a hammy. It could happen to anyone. Especially someone running his fucking ass off every day for 160 some days.
He still managed to hit 33 homers, 70 RBI's... He still slugged 560. and still put up 570 AB's. He was there when his team needed him. He did fine.
How many outfield assists did he have last year?

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
WHo's got a better chance at winning their division, league, championship.



Division, even.

League, Cubs

Champions, neither- Angels are gonna win it all.

Attendace Trophy, Cubs.

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:21 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Especially someone running his fucking ass off every day for 160 some days.


Well, let's not go crazy. :lol:

Soriano had a monster September last year...when they needed him. .320 with 14 HRs.

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Last edited by Dr. Kenneth Noisewater on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Brick
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Darkside wrote:
So doesn't a deeper, better team mean that it was put together better?
You say who's the better GM?
I say, who's the better team? WHo's got more depth? WHo's got a better chance at winning their division, league, championship.

The Cubs are better this year. The Sox have been better over Williams tenure than the Cubs have been over Hendry's.

Is the Giants GM now better than the Patriots GM? Is Paul Pierce now better than Kobe?

It's called the body of work. Kenny's resume is much more complete. Hendry can pull even this year, but there is still a chance that both teams make the playoffs, and neither one wins the World Series. After the season, we can compare who did better.

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Frank Coztansa
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:23 pm 
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The Sox competition, overall, is much much better than the Cubs' in the NL.

On paper, the Cubs are one of the best teams in baseball. But the same could be said about the 2007 Cubs and they lasted 3 games in the playoffs.

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Keyser Soze
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:25 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Quote:
the cubs were a joke in '06 the lemmings stopped showing up for games and they actually demanded a winner.

I hate to bing up attendance, but what the hell are you talking about?
Wrigley attendance was over 3.1 million on 2006.
Where do you get your facts and knowledge of baseball - from Frank Coztansa?


I didn't say they stopped buying tickets I said they stopped showing up for games. Reading is a skill. Ask any cub fan how that place looked in Sept '06 and they will tell you it was half full at best.
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RFDC
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Frank how in the hell do you figure the chances of Sox and Cubs winning their divisions as "even"?

The Cubs right now are 6 games up. The Sox are 1. How in the world is that even?

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WestmontMike
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:29 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
WestmontMike wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Lilly is another example of Hendry making a great signing.
Almost forgot that one.


Can't the Sox fans agree that this year the Cubs are a deeper, better balanced team?


Sure, but I don't think anyone was arguing that.

So doesn't a deeper, better team mean that it was put together better?
You say who's the better GM?
I say, who's the better team? WHo's got more depth? WHo's got a better chance at winning their division, league, championship.


I said deeper, better balanced team...not a better team. You said that.
As far as who's got a better chance...neither....both. They're both in 1st place, the opportunity to win is identical. The odds of it happening don't matter...what were the odds of Detroit winning the world series at the beginning of the year? What are their odds now?
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Frank Coztansa
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Both are the favorites. Both have established themselves as the best teams in thier respective divisions. Twins clearly are good, but they do not have the firepower the Sox do, and by the time September 21st rolls around, after the Twins have played 24 road games, the Sox magic number will be down to 2 or 3. And if the Cubs havent clinched by then, I'll be shocked.

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SteveSarley
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The highly-opinionate Frank Coztansa wrote:
Quote:
On paper, the Cubs are one of the best teams in baseball.


Not just on paper. On the field, baby. It's proven by their record.

Your posts are beginning to take on a slight fmodicum of sanity in the past few minutes.
What the hell happened?
Possibly a sharp blow to the head?

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Frank Coztansa
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"on the field baby"

Except for there's these teams called the Rays and Angels...



Unlike you with regard to Kenny Williams, I can give the CUbs credit and call them a good team. Doesn't mean I like them, or think Hendry is a living god, but they can play some ball.

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man of few opinions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Darkside wrote:
So doesn't a deeper, better team mean that it was put together better?
You say who's the better GM?
I say, who's the better team? WHo's got more depth? WHo's got a better chance at winning their division, league, championship.

The Cubs are better this year. The Sox have been better over Williams tenure than the Cubs have been over Hendry's.

Is the Giants GM now better than the Patriots GM? Is Paul Pierce now better than Kobe?

It's called the body of work. Kenny's resume is much more complete. Hendry can pull even this year, but there is still a chance that both teams make the playoffs, and neither one wins the World Series. After the season, we can compare who did better.


jerry reese of the new york football giants is the best GM in the world if you go by body of work. he has been gm 1 year, drafted a bunch of players who contributed, and won the super bowl. body of work doesnt get any better than that.
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Darkside
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:44 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Sox competition, overall, is much much better than the Cubs' in the NL.

On paper, the Cubs are one of the best teams in baseball. But the same could be said about the 2007 Cubs and they lasted 3 games in the playoffs.


Old school thinking and incorrect in 2008.
The Cubs have 4 teams over 500 in their DIVISION. The Sox have 2.
KC and Cle are evens with Pitts and Cin.
That excuse is sorry at best.

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Irish Boy
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It's funny; I feel like a grandmaster chess player watching this discussion. I see every move four or five moves ahead. The next posts will be about beating up on bad teams, whether the Royals good record in interleague play is legitimate, and whether the Cubs would be leading the AL East right now. Then there will be remarks about how the AL Central is the second worst division in baseball.

Onfortunately there might be a bit of uncertainty principle involved here; by writing this, I've changed the course of the conversation.

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Frank Coztansa
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Darkside...

Here we go with the insecurity again. Where did I say "central" there? Oh thats right, I didn't. I said "the Sox competition overall," as in the American League.

Overall...

The American LEAGUE > The National LEAGUE

This is fact any way you slice it- interleague records, overall records, All Star games (recently), World Series (recently). Not talking about the team's respective divisions (of which overall the NL Central is probably better, but the Twins and Sox are better than the Brewers and Cardinals), but the competition they play overall. If the Sox got the play the Dodgers, Padres, Rockies, Braves, Reds, Giants, Nationals etc more than just one or two series during interleague play, they'd have at least as many wins as the Cubs.

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SteveSarley
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Here you go Frankie Boy -

Kenny Williams is an excellent general manager. He's made some excellent trades.
He's drafted well. He's done fine in free agency. In light of the absurd budget restrictions he's faced,
I'd say he is one of the best in the business.

As for the Sox, I am amazed that they are leading their division. I had them pegged for third
or fourth before thew season but they have proved me wrong, big time. They've done a great
job keeping on course in light of the hardships they have faced. They are a good team and
play a good brand of baseball.

For balance....
I still can't stand the manager of the Sox, most Sox fans are insecure and worry
too much about the Cubs, and you, Frank Coztansa, are still a tool.

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spanky
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3 important points:

1. The Cubs have inferior opponents in the NL? Who the hell are the Sox finishing a sweep of right now?
2. The Cubs are so good, they would be in 1st in any division - even the AL east. You heard me...
3. Realistically, the Sox are lucky to be where they are at - aside from the NL West, is there another division worse than the AL Central?

How did I do IB? :D

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Beardown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:56 pm 
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Cubs are good.

Sox are good.

Let's see how they do in the playoffs.

God, why can't it be that simple?
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Darkside
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Frank, insecurity has nothing to do with the fact that most of your games are played against divisional opponants.
That's what I'm getting at.

And I don't buy the AL is still greater than the NL crap either.
If you don't see that arrow changing direction you are not paying attention.

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SteveSarley
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Irish Boy,
You don't think that there will be any messages about Wrigley being filled with
a bunch of drunks and/or tourists who nothing about baseball and don't even
watch the games?

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