I think fielding runs above replacement is a pretty widely accepted statistic- a lot more so than, say, fielding percentage. I'll be interested to see what David Pinto's probabilistic model of range has to say after the season (for those of you who think Soriano's defense is rated too high based on the FRAA, the prob. model of range has him at about league average, without taking into account outfield assists.

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Fire Phil Emery

Alexi is learning the position on the fly. He has made some errors yes, but he's also made some outstading plays that no other 2nd baseman in the league could make.

As far as his offensive numbers, he was not playing full time until mid-May, and even then when he did become a regular, he was hovering around .210, .220 for quite a while. They flashed up a state the other nite, and he was hitting .333 since May 10th, or something like that. Couple that with his power numbers, he's right up there with some of the best in the league, not just middle infielders. As far as his walks, he's better off swinging. Now that he's developed more, he has shown that he can flat out hit, and with his speed he is going to beat out a lot of slow rollers to the left side of the infield. I'd rather see him perfect the bunt than take a bunch of walks, unless he's gonna move up in the order. As long as he's hitting 6th, 7th, and 8th, with guys like Uribe, Hall, and Wise coming up after him, let him swing.

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It doesn't matter where in the order you hit; you need to take walks, period, full stop. I understand the learning a new position argument, and if I had to have one player going forward, I'd take Ramirez over Derosa. This year, not so much.

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Fire Phil Emery

Doesnt Zambrano make $17 mil a year? Isnt it stupid as fuck to break bats over your knee when you're that important to a team?

Who's the boss of that team? Isnt it Lou? And again, why doesnt anyone defend Lou for batting Soriano lead off? Stats dont lie and the stats show that Soriano would produce so many more runs if he batted in the middle of the order. Lou has three guys with high OBP and better stolen base guys but SWEET Lou wont budge.

Pies hurt? Have another BUD.

No Zambrano- No worldd series. Fine his ass until he stops.

Guess what RETARD. He still does it.

Williams has done an amazing job.


It's not just who KW has acquired, but the roles they fill on the team. He has gotten some of the toughest positions in MLB covered with solid players who are cheap for the next 2-3 years.

In Danks and Floyd you have the 2nd and 3rd spots in the rotation accounted for cheaply for the next 2 or 3 years. In Quentin, you have your number 3 hitter cheap for the next 2 or 3 years. In Ramirez and (hopefully) Beckham he has two potential impact bats at 2nd and SS cheap for the next 3-4 years. Swisher can stay in center or move to first and he'll give them adequate production relatively cheaply. If Anderson and/or Fields earn starting spots next year the Sox will be in terrific shape, imo.

Pies do hurt, just ask Toby Hall.

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You're pretty damn stupid.

1.) Look at Edmonds numbers with the Cubs, not the whole year. The Cubs numbers are the only ones relevant since we are comparing the teams. I like Swish, but Edmonds numbers are blowing his out of the water since being in Chicago. Whether he will sustain the success is entirely another question, and a valid one. Also Reed Johnson is a better player at this point in his career than Griffey, as much as I hate to say it.

2.) Cabrera is a very good defensive SS, but IMO he's overrated. I'd much rather have Theriot and you are stupid to say he's not an every day ML SS. He's not only that, but a damn good one. Maybe he only hits singles, but so does Ichiro and look at the kudos he's received in his career.

3.) There's noone in the world that I think would be able to convince me that Lou or Ozzie are definitively better than the other. They both have been successful and are among the best in MLB. If you want to give Lou brownie points for not being nearly as offensive and non-family friendly go ahead, but I dont care about that stuff.

Also, Im a Sox fan so dont think this is a meatball Cub fan calling you an idiot for being a Sox fan. It's a Sox fan calling you an idiot because you are for some reason trying to go to extremes to prove the point Kenny is better than Hendry and failing miserably.[/quote]




Player Comparison
Outfielder Hitting Stats, 2008
Next Stats>>


Picks left Player TEAM POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1. N Swisher CWS OF 122 409 75 97 18 1 20 61 177 73 100 3 2 .356 .433 .237
2. J Edmonds CHC OF 92 284 40 66 16 1 16 48 132 45 69 2 1 .339 .465 .232




Player TEAM POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1. K Griffey CIN OF 102 359 51 88 20 1 15 53 155 61 64 0 1 . 355 .432 .245
2. R Johnson CHC OF 84 262 45 82 20 0 6 45 120 16 48 5 5 .371 .458 .313


Yeah, Its so obvious to me how Cf is not a wash.

Theriot has no range and no arm. He'll be a 2b someday but theres no way is he in the upper half of definsive SS's


You wanna go toe to toe on baseball knowledge well bring it on. calling someone stupid based on an opinion is.... well stupid.

Are you 12?

Player Comparison
Outfielder Hitting Stats, 2008
Next Stats>>


Picks left Player TEAM POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1. N Swisher CWS OF 122 409 75 97 18 1 20 61 177 73 100 3 2 .356 .433 .237
2. J Edmonds CHC OF 92 284 40 66 16 1 16 48 132 45 69 2 1 .339 .465 .232




Player TEAM POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1. K Griffey CIN OF 102 359 51 88 20 1 15 53 155 61 64 0 1 . 355 .432 .245
2. R Johnson CHC OF 84 262 45 82 20 0 6 45 120 16 48 5 5 .371 .458 .313


Yeah, Its so obvious to me how Cf is not a wash.

Theriot has no range and no arm. He'll be a 2b someday but theres no way is he in the upper half of definsive SS's


You wanna go toe to toe on baseball knowledge well bring it on. calling someone stupid based on an opinion is.... well stupid.

Are you 12?[/quote]

I love all the baseball stats that your bringing up like you have those off the top of your head. I could tell you point blank I would rather have Edmonds and Johnson over Griffey and Swisher, but you would want to throw your "baseball knowledge" around at me so Im not going to fight this with you any more. BTW who the fuck says Theriot has no range or arm? Whats the stats on Edmonds with the Cubs? You just got Griffey too. So you should probably go with Edmonds and Reed Vs ....oh fuck it your to stupid to continue. Fuck yourself and get a damn life.

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Use Edmonds's Cub lines and all of a sudden he looks a lot better: .262/.377/.581 compared to Swisher's .237/.356/.432. He's also a slightly-above average center fielder (1 run above replacement) while Swisher is below average in center (4 runs below average.) As for the Johnson/Griffey comp, the offensive stats already clearly point towards Johnson (.313/.371/.458 to .245/.355./.433); Griffey is a below average right fielder, not to mention anything about his ability in center. Johnson is around league average.

As for Theriot's defense, the FRAA model wasn't the only one to have Theriot as around league average; according to David Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range, Theriot was 20th last year, slightly lower than average. Cabrera was only 13th, which I think is a little low, but there you have it.

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Fire Phil Emery

Edmonds has no fire. No passion.

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Thanks for doing the work again so I dont have to point out what a tool bag this guy is.

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I think there's a tendency in all sports fans to believe that the players either on their team or whom they have seen most often are either 1.) the best in the league or 2.) the worst. There's a lot of creamy middle area in a league with 30 teams. Soriano's the worst defensive left fielder... until you remember all the Adam Dunn's of the world out there that don't have any range, speed, or throwing ability. And he's hardly the only one (watch Manny on a regular basis, for example.)

Also, range is really tough to quantify. But it's even tougher to just make observations about on television. This is why statheads and fans get into "Does Derek Jeter suck defensively?" arguments (the answer: yes). His fielding percentage is always pretty good and he makes plays on the balls he gets to. The only problem is that he doesn't get to many. Glaring errors are one thing, but the ground balls and bloopers that fall just a few feet out of reach add up to something much more substantial over the long term.

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Fire Phil Emery

what does lou have to budge from, dumb-ass? his team leads the league in runs. his team has the most wins in baseball, and the best winning percentage in the NL. soriano is having a big year. the bottom of the lineup is getting on, and he is driving them home. why would he even consider at this point making a massive lineup move like that? for whatever reason, the guy has proven he hits better leading off. lou ignored the criticism, kept him there, and it has paid off.

yes it is stupid to break a bat over your knee. however, remind me again the last time any major leaguer has gotten injured due to this. just because you couldnt break a pixie stick over your knee without bawling doesnt mean these guys cant break the handle of a bat.

as for toby halls "pie injury" from whitesox.com:


ozzie clearly should ban pies to the face, or "fine them until it stops" .

mr. belvidere = clearly retarded.

Bats over knees and Pies in the face are the same. Got it.

Oh yeah, I think I said CF was a wash. And that insulted you? Got it.

Oh yeah, Ozzie would be a better manager if Carlos Quentin batted lead off. What about Thome in the two hole? Great idea.

And yeah, I'm retarded.

And like I asked before- Are you 12?

i could be 12, 52 or 92, and you would still be retarded.

Yeah, we knew. we didn't want to say anything, but admitting your problem is half the battle.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I never laughed in the face of any Cub fans in 2005. Most congratulated me on my team winning it all.

Some of you Fucks are the ones who cry like girls when your team loses and get mad at everyone who looks at them funny. But you also act like its a fore gone conclusion that your team is the best ANYWHERE. You do know that the Cubs are likely to play the D backs in the first round right? Webb, Johnson and Dunn Scare ya a little. I bet it does.

You have a good baseball team. Enjoy it. But to act like a turd and call me names really shows the maturity level you have. I have fun here and I express my opnion. Some get personal and call people "bad names". Have fun with that. I'll just sit back and wish some Cub fans luck and I'll be laughing my ass off at others when their team implodes AGAIN.

Bell, you're missing a guy with a 14-6 record and 3.12 ERA. Do you even know who I am talking about? Don't start bashing the Cubs with Elmhurst-Steve-like ammo. You have the entire starting lineup to choose from, and you pick a guy that just came to the team in a trade. Check out the stats on a guy with the last name of Jackson.

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President of Blake Shetlon fan club

Mr. Belvidere wrote:


Theriot has played in 119 games out of a possible 127 games.
He has started 112 of those games.
His batting average in .315, one of the best in the league.
He has a mere 12 errors to his credit.
His range may be a tad limited but he makes most of the plays he gets to.

What do you have to do beside start in 94% of your team's games
to be considered an "everyday Major League SS?"

_________________
Host of the weekly "We Fish ASA" podcast
Weekly columnist for the Northwest Herald
Bi-monthly columnist for Illinois Outdoor News magazine
Former host of The Outdoors Experience on WIND and The Great Outdoors on CLTV
http://www.wefishasa.com

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I think if you followed your team, you'd see that Adam Dunn is a Cub Killer. He has more career HR's against the Cubs than any other team. Randy Johnson owns the Cubs and he always has. Webb is the best pitcher in the N.L. for the last couple of years.

The D Backs have a terrible offense so the Cubs have the upper hand. They also set their pitching up pretty good with four solid starters. But dont get into an arguement with me about baseball because you will lose. I know who they have on their roster but apprently you dont. Their 3bman is a pretty player too. Do you even know who he is? Chceck out the stats on a guy with the last name of Reynolds.

The Diamond Backs are built for the playoffs. The Cubs better hit or they'll be one series and out.

Is theriot a better SS than H Ramirez? No.
Reyes? Peralta? Tejada? No
Onc e again. I called SS bewteen the Sox and Cubs a toss up. If Theriot and Cabrera were traded for each other, Theriot would play 2b and A. Ramirez would be moved to Shortstop.
If Cabrera signed with the Cubs next year, THE CUBS would move Theriot to 2b. He's a nice player who makes the play he should make but he will NEVER be in the upper half of DEFENSIVE SS's. Period. He's a 2Bman

Ramirez, Jeter, Peralta, Reyes, Rollins, Crosby, Greene, Young, Guzman, Renteria and Uribe are better defensive SS's. He's not even the best SS on his team.

Jeter is the worst defensive shortstop in the majors and has been for a few years now. This much is widely accepted wisdom, and your ignorance of this fact is brutal. Ramirez is regarded as a butcher in the field by most observers. Renteria is no longer very good defensively.

Do you like to just throw shit against a wall and see what sticks?

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Fire Phil Emery

Brian is a Sox fan you idiot. Reading is a skill.[/quote]

Reading is a skill apparently you dont have because based on his post, theres nothing there to indicate he's a Sox fan. NICE SKILL

So you're saying Jeter isnt better than Theriot defensively? Renteria isnt better than Theriot defensively? Ramirez isnt either? Are you on dope?

Jeter comes to the Cubs tomorrow. Who plays Short? End of discussion. I never said anything about Jeter being an elite SS. One again as others have said. Reading is a skill.

OK. Can I use the name game? Fucking Morons.

If you had the capacity to pay attention to more than one post at a time, you would realize based on his posts all season he's a Sox fan. Nothing in his post indicated he is a Cubs fan either you idiot.[/quote]

Does any of his posts from this forum say he's a Cub fan? Dont think so ass clown.
Are you a Cub fan? I dont suck the cocks of my fellow posters and idolize them so I dont remember the fandom of every poster. Some here are looking to insult ( like you) if their opinion is different. I can give a fuck who his favorite team is. I never insulted his dumbass until now and you either until recently. Keep on going ya fuck nut. You continue to show how much of an ass hole you are.

Yes. Do I fucking stutter? Jeter is the worst defensive starting shortstop in the game. Period.

Here's an article from Rob Neyer in 2001 talking about how bad Jeter is. http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1415713.html

You could read this article from one month ago if you like:
http://www.slate.com/id/2195149/

Or you could just type "Derek Jeter defense" into google and see what it spits out.

Ramirez has never been very good defensively, and Renteria used to be very good but no longer is. Ramirez is 6 runs below average defensively; Theriot is one. Renteria is league average (one run under) just like Theriot.

What is your criteria, exactly, for defense? Because it's obviously not good.

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Fire Phil Emery

Hey Belvidere!!
How about an answer to my question???

_________________
Host of the weekly "We Fish ASA" podcast
Weekly columnist for the Northwest Herald
Bi-monthly columnist for Illinois Outdoor News magazine
Former host of The Outdoors Experience on WIND and The Great Outdoors on CLTV
http://www.wefishasa.com

Here it goes. My point AGAIN is that he's not an everyday SHORT FUCKING STOP. Put Aramis at Short everyday and he's an every day SS. My WHOLE POINT is Theriot is a SECOND BASEMAN. He'd play every day there for me. That team has plenty of offense. Cedeno should be the EVERYDAY FUCKING SS. I love Derosa. Lou uses him well mostly but he should jump around and fill in. He's very valuable.

1. Theriot 2B
2. Fukedome RF
3. Lee 1B
4. Soriano LF
5. Ramirez 3B
6. Edmonds CF
7. Soto C
8. Cedeno SS

You guys have real issues. This is a "disccussion Board" not an "insult board". I said since last year that the Cubs will coast ALL year in that division. The Brewers hung tough for a while and the cards have been pretenders all year. I dont know what I said that insulted you pussys but you need to check yourselves. seriously.

I didn't think you called names...

You just discuss the issues

You are an idiot.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."