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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:54 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
yes im sure the most likely outcome is they aren't doing it, and it really should have cost more
But i have a pdf quote with pics of the crawl along with a drawing with a legend showing the shaded area is 'encapsulated area', which is the entire area . It's pretty clear. I guess i'm saying are there no consequences for not honoring a contract ? i guess not, it sucks
i wasn't trying to scam anyone, i don't know how much that shit costs. I work in a diesel fuel shop, i wouldn't expect this guy to know how much a Cummins fuel pump costs to rebuild. I just expect if i agree to a job at a price that the job gets done


Down payment by check, or credit card?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:07 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Bagels wrote:
yes im sure the most likely outcome is they aren't doing it, and it really should have cost more
But i have a pdf quote with pics of the crawl along with a drawing with a legend showing the shaded area is 'encapsulated area', which is the entire area . It's pretty clear. I guess i'm saying are there no consequences for not honoring a contract ? i guess not, it sucks
i wasn't trying to scam anyone, i don't know how much that shit costs. I work in a diesel fuel shop, i wouldn't expect this guy to know how much a Cummins fuel pump costs to rebuild. I just expect if i agree to a job at a price that the job gets done


Down payment by check, or credit card?

Credit card thankfully


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:26 pm 
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I'd tell them tough shit, you gave me a price, we agreed and you took my money..hold them to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:49 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Bagels wrote:
yes im sure the most likely outcome is they aren't doing it, and it really should have cost more
But i have a pdf quote with pics of the crawl along with a drawing with a legend showing the shaded area is 'encapsulated area', which is the entire area . It's pretty clear. I guess i'm saying are there no consequences for not honoring a contract ? i guess not, it sucks
i wasn't trying to scam anyone, i don't know how much that shit costs. I work in a diesel fuel shop, i wouldn't expect this guy to know how much a Cummins fuel pump costs to rebuild. I just expect if i agree to a job at a price that the job gets done


Down payment by check, or credit card?

Credit card thankfully



Problem solved on your refund then.

I'm not sure I would want to hold a shitty company to a contract they signed.

I believe it is $200 bucks to file suit if you want to go that route.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:41 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
yes im sure the most likely outcome is they aren't doing it, and it really should have cost more
But i have a pdf quote with pics of the crawl along with a drawing with a legend showing the shaded area is 'encapsulated area', which is the entire area . It's pretty clear. I guess i'm saying are there no consequences for not honoring a contract ? i guess not, it sucks
i wasn't trying to scam anyone, i don't know how much that shit costs. I work in a diesel fuel shop, i wouldn't expect this guy to know how much a Cummins fuel pump costs to rebuild. I just expect if i agree to a job at a price that the job gets done

They will likely go lower than $5300 to make it up to you and avoid issues if you call them up and ask to talk to the sales manager if they care about bad reviews and a small claims complaint by a bored diesel engine specialist.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:04 pm 
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If you're gonna seal a crawlspace I'd say, based on the hundreds I've been in, that if it's a home you plan on owning one term, get a great company and expect to pay a premium. With work like that you get what you pay for.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
yes im sure the most likely outcome is they aren't doing it, and it really should have cost more
But i have a pdf quote with pics of the crawl along with a drawing with a legend showing the shaded area is 'encapsulated area', which is the entire area . It's pretty clear. I guess i'm saying are there no consequences for not honoring a contract ? i guess not, it sucks
i wasn't trying to scam anyone, i don't know how much that shit costs. I work in a diesel fuel shop, i wouldn't expect this guy to know how much a Cummins fuel pump costs to rebuild. I just expect if i agree to a job at a price that the job gets done
Bagels, all these big home improvement companies, they write off everything!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:14 pm 
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Is it a signed contract Bagels, or just a quote?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:08 pm 
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it was a 'bid' that was emailed to me, i had to go to their website to accept it, so i assume that counts as a 'signature'

i'm moving on, they refunded my deposit so what's done is done. I am curious now to get a quote from somewhere else to see where it lands.

I just find it all very strange. How could you mis-quote something to that degree ?

The tech said he only had the material to do like 1/3 of it, why would that be ? If it was essentially a pricing error on their part, how would he have even been aware of it ? Like if i'm a painter and told i'm painting 4 rooms of a house, i'd bring enough paint to do 4 rooms. I also found it odd that their office/customer service never called me, this information was all being relayed to me by the tech.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:15 pm 
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I've had a couple instances where the work crew came and I spoke to them of additional work, and they estimated it from the company standpoint, then tried to sell me on their side business at a reduced price. Never remember the crew showing up and wanting to double the price for the quoted job. It all sounds odd, with dimensions to work from, there should be no way to underestimate the job by 2/3. I think you're best to move on.

Come to think of it, you should just MOVE!

I almost forgot.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:40 am 
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Question for Ol Darko: what are your thoughts on REME Halo devices for HVAC systems? Had my fall tuneup yesterday and the tech recommended one. Info I found online seems to indicate they work but would be interested to know your experience with them, if you have any.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:57 am 
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The Division wrote:
Question for Ol Darko: what are your thoughts on REME Halo devices for HVAC systems? Had my fall tuneup yesterday and the tech recommended one. Info I found online seems to indicate they work but would be interested to know your experience with them, if you have any.

Excellent question. I'm also curious.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:31 am 
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There are quite a few different products out there like the Halo but they all make very similar claims and the systems work very much the same. Most of my direct experience comes from Air Scrubber by Aerus and one of Remes earlier RGF solutions. What is below should apply to any modern air cleaner.

Quick answer: snake oil.

Long answer:
The thing about air cleaners like this is like any good bullshit product, on the surface the facts make sense. Strong UVC light can quickly kill pathogens and or render them inactive. That second part I'll get back to in a minute. What they're not getting into is pass time. Pass time is how long a pathogen is actually exposed to the uv light. So basically to kill an average virus with uv light, it would require exposure of anywhere between 6 and 33 seconds. When your furnace is running (we're talking heat, ac, or fan on when im saying furnace running for this post), and air is moving chances are the particle or virus flying thru your duct work is going to be going past that light is less than a second. It did not have sufficient exposure to actually damage the DNA of the pathogen.
Now uv lights are very effective in aquariums for controlling algae and pathogens. Why? Just like uv gets attached to ductwork typically uv is installed in line with a canister type filter. And although the pass time is short, maybe oy a half second and kls require 6-33 seconds, the thing is that repeated passes can add up over time to a proper kill time. Why doesn't that really work in a home then? Well an aquarium is essentially a closed loop. No water is changed out for fresh water regularly so the volume is fair static and easier to filter. A house, even a modern one, still experiences 2 to 3 air changes per hour or ACH.
If your house is not exactly the tightest one in the world, average doors average windows average siding average insulation... you're probably experiencing 3 ACH, meaning at least every 20 minutes, the entire volume of air in your home is replaced with air from outdoors.
We measure the amount of air delivered by a furnace in cubic feet per minute. So lots look at cfm for a second. Let's say you have a 2100 Sq foot home. I guess we can say that your cubic feet of air would be around say around 25,000 cubic feet. With let's 3 ACH you need to treat 75000 cubic feet. Your furnace (ac) size is probably around 3.5 tons, at 400 cfm per ton you're moving 1400 cubic feet per minute, which brings us to 84000 cubic feet in an hour which would be JUST enough to treat the air if A) one pass killed the pathogen with it won't and B) each air change didn't bring in fresh contamination.
On part I'm ambivalent on is is the claim that these products can convert water vapor and pathogens into h2o2 which floats in the air and settles on every surface in the home and essentially steralizes everything. That's the claim. Ok. I'm not sure that is really what is happening. It's possible. But it seems unlikely to me that the h2o2 vapor can last long in the uv environment which it's created in the first place and last long in the environment in general because we all know hydrogen peroxide is in brown bottles because light destroys it.
Another problem is that the uv light ain't doing without the fan running all day every day. If you leave your thermostat fan setting on auto and your heat only runs 15 minutes an hour and even colder days, you ain't doing shit with that UV for 45 minutes of each hour. You need to leave your fan on 24/7 to get any benefit.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:53 am 
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We just replaced A/C units in our church sanctuary this summer. The contractor quoted the option of UV light. I recommended the system, less the UV since it was "unproven" in an HVAC system; pissed another guy off so bad he offered to pay the option price himself. I said okay! As long as there are no huge maintenance expenses down the road, his wife swears it works, so let her have it. Probably the worst possible environment for the technology, but, whatever.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:58 am 
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Darkside wrote:
There are quite a few different products out there like the Halo but they all make very similar claims and the systems work very much the same. Most of my direct experience comes from Air Scrubber by Aerus and one of Remes earlier RGF solutions. What is below should apply to any modern air cleaner.

Quick answer: snake oil.

Long answer:
The thing about air cleaners like this is like any good bullshit product, on the surface the facts make sense. Strong UVC light can quickly kill pathogens and or render them inactive. That second part I'll get back to in a minute. What they're not getting into is pass time. Pass time is how long a pathogen is actually exposed to the uv light. So basically to kill an average virus with uv light, it would require exposure of anywhere between 6 and 33 seconds. When your furnace is running (we're talking heat, ac, or fan on when im saying furnace running for this post), and air is moving chances are the particle or virus flying thru your duct work is going to be going past that light is less than a second. It did not have sufficient exposure to actually damage the DNA of the pathogen.
Now uv lights are very effective in aquariums for controlling algae and pathogens. Why? Just like uv gets attached to ductwork typically uv is installed in line with a canister type filter. And although the pass time is short, maybe oy a half second and kls require 6-33 seconds, the thing is that repeated passes can add up over time to a proper kill time. Why doesn't that really work in a home then? Well an aquarium is essentially a closed loop. No water is changed out for fresh water regularly so the volume is fair static and easier to filter. A house, even a modern one, still experiences 2 to 3 air changes per hour or ACH.
If your house is not exactly the tightest one in the world, average doors average windows average siding average insulation... you're probably experiencing 3 ACH, meaning at least every 20 minutes, the entire volume of air in your home is replaced with air from outdoors.
We measure the amount of air delivered by a furnace in cubic feet per minute. So lots look at cfm for a second. Let's say you have a 2100 Sq foot home. I guess we can say that your cubic feet of air would be around say around 25,000 cubic feet. With let's 3 ACH you need to treat 75000 cubic feet. Your furnace (ac) size is probably around 3.5 tons, at 400 cfm per ton you're moving 1400 cubic feet per minute, which brings us to 84000 cubic feet in an hour which would be JUST enough to treat the air if A) one pass killed the pathogen with it won't and B) each air change didn't bring in fresh contamination.
On part I'm ambivalent on is is the claim that these products can convert water vapor and pathogens into h2o2 which floats in the air and settles on every surface in the home and essentially steralizes everything. That's the claim. Ok. I'm not sure that is really what is happening. It's possible. But it seems unlikely to me that the h2o2 vapor can last long in the uv environment which it's created in the first place and last long in the environment in general because we all know hydrogen peroxide is in brown bottles because light destroys it.
Another problem is that the uv light ain't doing without the fan running all day every day. If you leave your thermostat fan setting on auto and your heat only runs 15 minutes an hour and even colder days, you ain't doing shit with that UV for 45 minutes of each hour. You need to leave your fan on 24/7 to get any benefit.


DS whipping out science and math! And on a Saturday! Thanks for the detailed response and that’s kinda what I thought about it initially. I’ll reach out to folks in my group at work (microbiologists) to see if H2O2 could be made in that process.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:00 am 
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I wanted to thank Darkside again for his help with my furnace a week ago, or so. There was a Shoutout section, but here seems better.

Oh, and thanks also for the suggestion to disassemble and clean the burners. Six stainless burners with almost no visible crud buildup despite 18 years or so without service. All held together by 1400+/- sheet metal screws, 200+square feet of razor-sharp sheet metal, requiring half the screws to be started simultaneously, whilst holding all six burners with two hands each. Took about three hours and a quart of blood. MF'r. i'm in your service area now, just so you know!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:02 am 
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K Effective wrote:
We just replaced A/C units in our church sanctuary this summer. The contractor quoted the option of UV light. I recommended the system, less the UV since it was "unproven" in an HVAC system; pissed another guy off so bad he offered to pay the option price himself. I said okay! As long as there are no huge maintenance expenses down the road, his wife swears it works, so let her have it. Probably the worst possible environment for the technology, but, whatever.


How much did that guy end up paying? They quoted me something like 1300 for the LED light and about 1k for the regular light. And that’s for a 3000 sq. ft. house.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:24 pm 
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K Effective wrote:
I wanted to thank Darkside again for his help with my furnace a week ago, or so. There was a Shoutout section, but here seems better.

Oh, and thanks also for the suggestion to disassemble and clean the burners. Six stainless burners with almost no visible crud buildup despite 18 years or so without service. All held together by 1400+/- sheet metal screws, 200+square feet of razor-sharp sheet metal, requiring half the screws to be started simultaneously, whilst holding all six burners with two hands each. Took about three hours and a quart of blood. MF'r. i'm in your service area now, just so you know!

Sorry.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:40 pm 
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Sorry hes in your service area :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:45 pm 
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Btw. Most pathogens, including rona, dont last long in the air even without any sterilization. Uv lights make sense in water. They dont do much for air. Same goes for eletrostatic ionizers. Source, im pcqi certified. And important as shit

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:57 pm 
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IkeSouth wrote:
Btw. Most pathogens, including rona, dont last long in the air even without any sterilization. Uv lights make sense in water. They dont do much for air. Same goes for eletrostatic ionizers. Source, im pcqi certified. And important as shit

That's kinda what I said.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:37 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
IkeSouth wrote:
Btw. Most pathogens, including rona, dont last long in the air even without any sterilization. Uv lights make sense in water. They dont do much for air. Same goes for eletrostatic ionizers. Source, im pcqi certified. And important as shit

That's kinda what I said.


You said Ike was important?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:50 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
IkeSouth wrote:
Btw. Most pathogens, including rona, dont last long in the air even without any sterilization. Uv lights make sense in water. They dont do much for air. Same goes for eletrostatic ionizers. Source, im pcqi certified. And important as shit

That's kinda what I said.


Yea but i didnt read it

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:51 pm 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Darkside wrote:
IkeSouth wrote:
Btw. Most pathogens, including rona, dont last long in the air even without any sterilization. Uv lights make sense in water. They dont do much for air. Same goes for eletrostatic ionizers. Source, im pcqi certified. And important as shit

That's kinda what I said.


You said Ike was important?


Youre going to die by my hands

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:48 pm 
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The Division wrote:
How much did that guy end up paying? They quoted me something like 1300 for the LED light and about 1k for the regular light. And that’s for a 3000 sq. ft. house.


I think the bid was $2600 or so for two separate units. The whole project was over $50K. One family stepped up for the base system (not mine), others chipped in for extras like UV, wifi t-stat, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:10 pm 
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K Effective wrote:
The Division wrote:
How much did that guy end up paying? They quoted me something like 1300 for the LED light and about 1k for the regular light. And that’s for a 3000 sq. ft. house.


I think the bid was $2600 or so for two separate units. The whole project was over $50K. One family stepped up for the base system (not mine), others chipped in for extras like UV, wifi t-stat, etc.


Sounds like it matched up with my quote. Can anyone at your church tell a difference with the UV system?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:25 pm 
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The Division wrote:
K Effective wrote:
The Division wrote:
How much did that guy end up paying? They quoted me something like 1300 for the LED light and about 1k for the regular light. And that’s for a 3000 sq. ft. house.


I think the bid was $2600 or so for two separate units. The whole project was over $50K. One family stepped up for the base system (not mine), others chipped in for extras like UV, wifi t-stat, etc.


Sounds like it matched up with my quote. Can anyone at your church tell a difference with the UV system?

If you're paying more than $800 for an Air Scrubber or Remes system you're paying more than you need to to get one installed.

If you're paying $800, you're paying $800 for very little actual benefit.

Think of what these systems claim to actually do. They're extraordinary claims.

Another thing I'll tell you. I had a customer who raved about how awesome their UV system worked and how happy they were to have it. Claimed to not be sick one day since it was installed. Awesome, says i, I'm pleased you are happy with your purchase. I get to the basement to start the maintenance and I find that the system was not powered up, the transformer was improper. They used a 10va transformer when you need a 40va transformer to make it work. It wasn't on one day.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:57 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:27 am 
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Look, here's the deal. I'm responsible for more revenue at my company than any other technician. But I get shit from my boss all the time because I refuse to sell certain high percentage product like for example these air scrubbers. And I don't ever upsell at maintenance calls unless it's necessary or something that benefits the customer. I do sell more replacement furnaces and boilers than anyone se does but that's because I am significantly more thorough than anyone else is at my calls. If I end up at your house I'm checking deep into the system. And maybe you'll get some news you don't want. But what you won't have is a 600 repair bill this year and a 1200 repair bill the next year then the 3500 replacement bill costing you 5300 instead of the 3500 it should have been.
I put this shit into my house first. A couple years ago I recommended an ecobee thermostat to a friend/board member when i diagnosed their issue being the thermostat. He had a carrier infinity thermostat. That fucker is 800 bucks. The ecobee I think I put in for him for less than 300. And it's a better stat, I know this because it's the last of 5 or 6 thermostat I tested in my house. I won't test any more because this thing is great and I love it and I don't want another one anymore.
So when I say that these things are expensive trash understand that I know how this works. The tech who sells it to you gets 50 to 100 bucks commission. The sales manager or service manager gets a commission too. Then there's the company profit. And aerus profit. And for what so you can breathe h2o2 and o3 and bleach your upholstery? Get a fresh smell (ozone) and get otherwise zero benefit except for profit to a tech and sales manager?
It's a garbage technology and I'll never endorse it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:35 am 
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That wasn't at you. Just amazed at the shit people buy into.


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