Kinda my "day the music died" moment". I've always wondered how their music would have been had he lived. The bitch of it was Lars was supposed to be in that bunk on the bus that fateful night in Sweden, but won a coin toss or something, and took the better bunk. Once a selfish prick....

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"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." ~ H.L. Mencken

Yup ,If Cliff never would have died I think two major things would have happen .
1) no Video and therefore no huge success ,leads up to
2) no whiney bullshit ,Cliff would have beaten Lars ass over it .

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When I am stuck and need to figure something out I always remember the Immortal words of Socrates when he said:"I just drank what?"

Their careers really took a downhill turn after Cliff croaked.

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Disclaimer: Most of my posts are not suitable for work or home viewing.

The name's Rockmore. Beef Rockmore

Their careers took a downhill turn? Not sure about that one. Justice was on par with some of the older stuff. The Black album alienated some of their core fan base, but took their careers to a level they had never seen before. Their careers went down hill after Load/ReLoad as they could not regain their magic in the studio. Kirk's solos were reduced, Lars went simple and they were overall bored it seemed.

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I'm assuming he meant their music took a downhill turn, because money and popularity wise, they were never more successful than they were AFTER Cliff died...

Yeah, but Justice was not too horrible from a music perspective. You could dance to it.

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I wasn't agreeing with the idea that their music took a downward turn...that was just what I thought he meant by it...

Justice, Black, Load, Re-Load and Garange, Inc. were all alright in my book...S&M is a great live album...St. Anger makes me puke...haven't given the new one a listen yet...

I get confused easily. St. Anger was horrible.

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Wrong Section

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I can't speak for Mr. Rockmore, but I'm assuming his post was tongue in cheek. Their popularity soared after Burton's death. Old school metal heads will always hold Master of Puppets in highest regard, as they should.

As I'm sure Grid would hold all of his puppets in high regards as well.

Grid is the Master of Puppets

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Jim (and maybe Beef), Ive gotten into this fight with a lot of early metallica fans who swear everything after Burton sucks and the whole band should have been crushed by the bus. Burton was good, but I think Newsted had better base lines in Justice then most anything Burton did in the first three albums.

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The first Metallica I listed to was the stuff with Newsted on the bass, so I'm biased towards him. However, I have huge respect for what Burton did, and I find that his style did a better job to stand out than Newsted's stuff.

Also, I just played Battery on Expert and it was harder than most guitar songs on expert...

Now I'm no expert on Metallica, but Master of Puppets, Damage Inc., Battery and Sanitarium melted my ear canals the first time I heard them.

I guess it gets style points for being recorded in one of my home away from homes back in the 80s: Copenhagen, Denmark

It was what was 'all right' with metal for me, to counter what was 'all wrong' with it: Poison, Firehouse and your other Metal Hair poser bands ODing on toxic hair spray and eye liner.

According to Wikipedia, they drew cards for the bunk and Cliff "won" with an Ace of Spades. Don't know if that's true or someone just screwing around, but if it's true, it doesn't sound like it was Lars fault.

Ahh, don't take this the wrong way Hoffy, but you're out ya damn mind.

"Burton was good" Nice understatement. I bet you think that Mozart was a fairly talented kid. Plus, you can't even hear Newsted's bass on Justice.

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"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." ~ H.L. Mencken

Sorry, Newsted was by far the better bassist. Not being able to hear Newsted on Justice had more to do with James and Lars being fucking babies. One of the reasons he left Metallica (aside from being hit on by Lars for his entire tenure) was the near constant handcuffing of his talent by James and Lars. During the home video/Behind the music on the Black album, James admitted that during the recording of Justice every time Jason stepped out and attempted to make a contribution to the writing process, they slapped him down.

Cliff was the better composer/arranger. I'd even give a slight nod to Cliff on the songwriting front. But as a bassist, Newsted is tops.

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I don't do drugs anymore... than say, the average touring funk band.
-Bill Hicks

All good points Chowd. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the Cliff/Jason who was better discussion.

I do know it was Hetfield/Ulrich who damn near mixed the bass out of Justice. I have seen A Year In The Life, and Jason was their whipping boy. It seems they felt the "honor" of being Metallica's new bass player gave them the right to haze this guy unmercifully. BTW, I'm not questioning Newsted's ability. I've got some early Flotsam & Jetsam CD's and the guy is great. Just loved Cliff.

Best Jason Newstead line ever, "This is fuckng lame". That was his response on Some Kind Of Monster when they brought in the "life coach".

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"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." ~ H.L. Mencken

Aye, good points indeed. I was more of a fan of technical bass players; Sheehan/Bogert/Lee/Alderette(racerX). No Place for Disgrace and Doomsday are awesome records. I saw them at the Whale on that tour. Jason Ward (formally of Chicago's own Widow's Rose) is a monster player also. Equal to Jason at the very least.

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I don't do drugs anymore... than say, the average touring funk band.
-Bill Hicks

I'm gonna keep it simple. In my view Kill em All up to and including ..and Justice are the only Metallica albums I can listen to. And even Justice isn't 'great".