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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:44 pm 
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Nobody was optimistic about a resolution, not surprising unfortunately


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:06 pm 
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2020 was a pretty simple situation. The commissioner got to pick the number of games and the players agreed to accept prorated pay for those games, but both sides couldn't even handle that. The only way this gets resolved is for each side to inflict pain on the other side until one side cries "Uncle!" Just burning through spring training is probably not enough to do that. I'm thinking one to two months of the regular season are going to be lost, although I would love to be wrong about absolutely everything written above.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:51 pm 
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nobody will pay attention until the superbowl and then fans will start to become irritated

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:01 pm 
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So there is no way this season starts on time or goes for 162 games right? :( :cry:

Fuck everybody involved here. They're all shitheads.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/07/spor ... ckout.html
Quote:
As Baseball Fights Over the Short Term, Long-Term Problems Loom

Arguments over the sport’s financial structure could delay or shorten the season, but owners and players should address a bigger issue: improving the product.

Baseball is working on its financial future, but today’s game is marred by endless strikeouts and lengthy games.

Tyler Kepner
By Tyler Kepner
Feb. 7, 2022

The saddest part about the baseball lockout, which almost certainly will delay the start of spring training and perhaps trim the regular season, is the missed opportunity. Again.

This is quite the pace for Major League Baseball and the players’ union. In the 2020s, the owners and the players have already blown two chances to help grow their sport. Two years ago, they spent the early months of the pandemic squabbling about the economics of a restart, ending up with just 60 games. Now this.

The owners imposed a lockout on Dec. 2 after the expiration of the collective bargaining agreement with the players. The sides have made almost no progress since. Spring training is supposed to start next week, the regular season on March 31. Will they play the full 162 games this season? Bet the under.

To speak with several people directly involved in the negotiations is to come away extremely discouraged. There is nothing to suggest a quick or satisfying resolution. The owners will begin three days of meetings on Tuesday in Orlando, Fla., and must find a way to re-engage a union that rejected the idea of a nonbinding federal mediator last week.

The owners generally like the current system but want more revenue in the form of a garish money grab: expanded playoffs and advertisements on jerseys and helmets. The players will not agree to those changes without significant adjustments to the game’s economics.

The real pity is that finances should be the easy part. The basic goals outlined on Twitter by the Mets’ Max Scherzer, a member of the union’s executive subcommittee, seem reasonable enough: “We want a system where threshold and penalties don’t function as caps, allows younger players to realize more of their market value, makes service time manipulation a thing of the past, and eliminate tanking as a winning strategy.”

Makes sense, right? Who wants to see the Baltimore Orioles use subpar pitchers every night because they know it helps them in the long term to lose aggressively in the short term? Who thinks it is fair that Pete Alonso has earned more by winning two Home Run Derbys than he has by playing three full seasons? Who believes an executive who insists that a top slugging prospect should stay in the minors to work on his defense — not as a way to delay his time to free agency?

These have been glaring problems for years, and it’s hard to fathom that the leadership of the commissioner’s office and the union still cannot find a solution. Yet this lockout has always seemed inevitable because neither side trusts the other or views the sport as a partnership.

If they did, they would have found common-sense answers to the obvious issues and moved on to the hard ones that jeopardize the sport’s long-term health. They should focus on improving the product.

Take the starting pitcher. He’s the guy who draws you to the ballpark, the TV, the gambling app. He’s disappearing, and that’s a major problem. In 2011, there were 39 pitchers who worked 200 innings. A decade later, there were four. The starter is baseball’s most marketable position; fewer dynamic starters make for a less appealing game.

But, hey, at least it lasts longer than ever. Baseball achieved two dubious records last season: longest average game time (3 hours 11 minutes) and most pitchers used per team (4.43 per game, tied with 2020). The average time between balls in play was about four minutes. Teams averaged nearly nine strikeouts per game, while stolen bases (0.46 per game) plunged to a 50-year low.

While Commissioner Rob Manfred has encouraged experimentation at the minor league level, no big changes have been incorporated in the majors in terms of speeding up and improving the game.

M.L.B. has experimented with various rule changes in the minors and independent leagues in an effort to improve the pace of play and stimulate action. But Commissioner Rob Manfred has held off from implementing any of those changes — bigger bases, banning the infield shift, enforcement of a pitch clock, and so on — and has been unable to persuade the union to work with his office on those issues.

Again, that highlights the deep mistrust players feel toward ownership, a factor that Manfred has consistently dismissed.

“I think this whole relationship thing gets overplayed and misinterpreted,” he said at the All-Star Game last July, in comments he echoed after implementing the lockout. “You’re in a collective bargaining relationship, you’re going to have points in time where you have disagreements. I don’t think that’s a good thing, but it happens. It just is the way of the world. And agreements get made or not made based on the substance of what’s out there.”

Perhaps the pressure points on the calendar will lead to more substantive moves, by both sides. Canceled exhibitions in March? Missed paychecks in April? And what about those hundreds of free agents remaining on the frozen market? Eventually, they’d like to find a team.

There is so much work remaining and not enough fear of the far-reaching impact of a work stoppage. If history is a guide, the fallout can be toxic.

After the 1981 strike, which cost 713 games, and a brief strike in 1985, owners illegally conspired to collude against free agents. After the 1994 strike, which canceled the World Series, owners staged a farcical spring training with replacement players. When an explosion of home runs finally brought the fans back, nobody had the appetite — or the courage — to confront the obvious specter of steroids.

Consider the damage. World Series ratings have never again been as high as they were in 1980 and now are an annual embarrassment. Per-game attendance reached an all-time high in 1994 (an average of 31,256 per game), and took 12 years to return to that level. Now it is falling again: In 2019, the last season with full capacity, the average crowd was 28,203, the fourth consecutive year it had dropped.

Baseball has been propped up financially by regional sports networks, but that model is severely threatened as more households alter their viewing habits and drop cable. The most pressing issue for the sport’s leaders should be finding a new broadcast paradigm and a better game to pitch to it.

There is so much to celebrate in baseball, so many more fans who should be entranced by spellbinding players competing in the greatest sport ever devised. Instead, the league and the players are deadlocked on the easy stuff and hastening their own decline.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:17 pm 
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No....I don't think there's any chance we see a full 162 game season. That doesn't necessarily bother me as the season is already too long.

If the season starts later than May 1....then I think we have a problem. I'm not optimistic. Ownership is seeking things that I find make the game worse, not better. They don't care.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:20 pm 
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BigW72 wrote:
No....I don't think there's any chance we see a full 162 game season. That doesn't necessarily bother me as the season is already too long.

If the season starts later than May 1....then I think we have a problem. I'm not optimistic. Ownership is seeking things that I find make the game worse, not better. They don't care.

Quite honestly, the season should start May 1 anyway. March and April baseball is the fucking worst.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:25 pm 
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BigW72 wrote:
No....I don't think there's any chance we see a full 162 game season. That doesn't necessarily bother me as the season is already too long.

If the season starts later than May 1....then I think we have a problem. I'm not optimistic. Ownership is seeking things that I find make the game worse, not better. They don't care.


The problem is that at one time, ostensibly, the Commissioner was the only party who was tasked with looking out for the long term good of the sport. Maybe that never was the case, maybe it hasn't been the case since Landis was Commissioner. That's all prologue now because since Bud Selig took over the Commissioner clearly isn't looking out for the long term good of the sport, but is essentially the negotiating agent for the owners.

The owners, and I don't blame them, are looking to advance short term profits to benefit their investment, that's what they should be motivated to do. The problem is that many of those concepts don't comport with the history of the game, and likely aren't going to make it more popular in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:34 am 
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The RSN problem is the real one. Sinclair/Bally's has already said they want to be allowed to stream games inside their market areas for a similar price that MLB.com charges for out of market streaming. Manfred came out and shot it down.

The players want teams to aggressively spend to still be bad. In their view, every team should have a Jason Heyward. Yet owners are not allowed to offer salary/bonus structures based on team performance, only individual performance. Let teams offer a bonus for making the playoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:47 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Consider the damage. World Series ratings have never again been as high as they were in 1980 and now are an annual embarrassment. Per-game attendance reached an all-time high in 1994 (an average of 31,256 per game), and took 12 years to return to that level. Now it is falling again: In 2019, the last season with full capacity, the average crowd was 28,203, the fourth consecutive year it had dropped.


NFW actual attendance averages anything close to 28,000. Probably lucky if actual, butts-in-seats and not just tickets "allocated" (sales + giveaways + team/friends and family tickets) breaks 20K on average per game.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:28 am 
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
Let teams offer a bonus for making the playoffs.

Interesting....where does this money originate....from team payroll or overall MLB? The only way it would work in an equitable manner would be from the overall MLB share of revenue.
If it was team control as part of the payroll....the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox teams of the league will just guarantee the money way more than the Pirates and Rays of the league.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:35 pm 
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BigW72 wrote:
Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
Let teams offer a bonus for making the playoffs.

Interesting....where does this money originate....from team payroll or overall MLB? The only way it would work in an equitable manner would be from the overall MLB share of revenue.
If it was team control as part of the payroll....the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox teams of the league will just guarantee the money way more than the Pirates and Rays of the league.

I'd use the revenue sharing money. Instead of just handing it out to the poor teams, hand it out as a playoff purse, with extra money going to both owners and players of teams due revenue sharing if they make the playoffs and some money to whichever team's players win the WS.

Sell a sponsorship for that last part, let Amazon bid $100M to have the Amazon World Series Check Party the day after the final game of the WS and add it to the playoff share.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:16 pm 
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Carlos Rodon to Giants 2 yrs 44 million


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Left-handed starter Carlos Rodón and the San Francisco Giants are in agreement on a two-year, $44 million contract that includes an opt-out after the first season, sources familiar with the deal tell ESPN.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:18 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Carlos Rodon to Giants 2 yrs 44 million


@JeffPassan
Left-handed starter Carlos Rodón and the San Francisco Giants are in agreement on a two-year, $44 million contract that includes an opt-out after the first season, sources familiar with the deal tell ESPN.


Giants going for it this year.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:19 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Carlos Rodon to Giants 2 yrs 44 million


@JeffPassan
Left-handed starter Carlos Rodón and the San Francisco Giants are in agreement on a two-year, $44 million contract that includes an opt-out after the first season, sources familiar with the deal tell ESPN.

Kind of sucks to see him go but good for him. You prob have to at least halve the years on any Rodon contract to get to the amount of time he’ll be healthy.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:45 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Carlos Rodon to Giants 2 yrs 44 million


@JeffPassan
Left-handed starter Carlos Rodón and the San Francisco Giants are in agreement on a two-year, $44 million contract that includes an opt-out after the first season, sources familiar with the deal tell ESPN.

Kind of sucks to see him go but good for him. You prob have to at least halve the years on any Rodon contract to get to the amount of time he’ll be healthy.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

nice!

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:47 pm 
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it's pathetic that he made 24 starts last year and only pitched 132 innings. That's terrible.

Tired of people sayin' he had a great year. If that was the case, why was he pitching only 5 innings a start?

(And for the record, I always liked Rodon)

When I think of 24 starts, I'm thinkin' like 160 or 170 innin's.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:47 pm 
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whistler wrote:
it's pathetic that he made 24 starts last year and only pitched 132 innings. That's terrible.

Tired of people sayin' he had a great year. If that was the case, why was he pitching only 5 innings a start?

(And for the record, I always liked Rodon)

When I think of 24 starts, I'm thinkin' like 160 or 170 innin's.

5 innings is all that’s expected out of starters anymore .

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:02 pm 
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It's easy to say Rodon will inevitably be hurt, but the Giants are not a dumb organization. Let's see if the Sox are right or if this is another example of being cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:05 pm 
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That is a great deal for SF, pitchers park, the whole division is pitchers parks. Keep his innings down and keep him healthy for october.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:49 pm 
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You can’t count on Rodon. He will be hurt, and he seems soft. Sox were smart to let him walk.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:02 pm 
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312player wrote:
That is a great deal for SF, pitchers park, the whole division is pitchers parks. Keep his innings down and keep him healthy for october.


except Coors


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:41 pm 
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Steve Stone was really interesting on ITC this morning. Their usual Levine & Haugh crying this time about negotiated lockout $ BS nobody cares about, and blubbering about how the games been damaged silliness. Stone comes out in contrast to these 2 clowns giving honest opinions about the Sox and MLB. He pretty much said Rodon will be hurt sometime in his 2 years with SF.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:05 pm 
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vitoscotti wrote:
Steve Stone was really interesting on ITC this morning. Their usual Levine & Haugh crying this time about negotiated lockout $ BS nobody cares about, and blubbering about how the games been damaged silliness. Stone comes out in contrast to these 2 clowns giving honest opinions about the Sox and MLB. He pretty much said Rodon will be hurt sometime in his 2 years with SF.



Bold prediction!

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:50 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
You can’t count on Rodon. He will be hurt, and he seems soft. Sox were smart to let him walk.


Agreed, and starting pitching is also the deepest area on the team.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:30 am 
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Kind of surprised there haven’t been more signings yet.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:32 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Kind of surprised there haven’t been more signings yet.


Yeah. It seems like teams and agents actually were not talking much during this lockout.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:41 pm 
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Warren Newson wrote:
denisdman wrote:
You can’t count on Rodon. He will be hurt, and he seems soft. Sox were smart to let him walk.


Agreed, and starting pitching is also the deepest area on the team.

It looked pretty shallow in the playoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:12 pm 
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BigW72 wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
denisdman wrote:
You can’t count on Rodon. He will be hurt, and he seems soft. Sox were smart to let him walk.


Agreed, and starting pitching is also the deepest area on the team.

It looked pretty shallow in the playoffs.


Everything looked pretty shallow in the playoffs.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:01 am 
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Nelson Cruz signs w/ the Nationals.

All weekend the so called experts were saying it was between the Padres and Dodgers.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:01 am 
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Nelson Cruz is toast.


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