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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:07 am 
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RFDC wrote:
How did he bungle the Ogunjobi situation? They agreed to a contract with a guy that was pretty well thought to be a good signing and then when he when he didnt pass his physical he moved on. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?


Yes.

Every NFL signing is based upon passing a physical/

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:10 am 
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No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:24 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
RFDC wrote:
How did he bungle the Ogunjobi situation? They agreed to a contract with a guy that was pretty well thought to be a good signing and then when he when he didnt pass his physical he moved on. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?


Yes.

Every NFL signing is based upon passing a physical/


The physical should have happened on Monday, especially since Poles had come to an agreement with Ogunjobi during the negotiating period AND the Bears knew he suffered a significant injury during the playoffs. Completing the physical expeditiously would have allowed Poles to target other players in free agency. For instance, this might have allowed them to increase their offer to Brian Allen or pursue other defensive players.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:27 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
RFDC wrote:
How did he bungle the Ogunjobi situation? They agreed to a contract with a guy that was pretty well thought to be a good signing and then when he when he didnt pass his physical he moved on. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?


Yes.

Every NFL signing is based upon passing a physical/


The physical should have happened on Monday, especially since Poles had come to an agreement with Ogunjobi during the negotiating period AND the Bears knew he suffered a significant injury during the playoffs. Completing the physical expeditiously would have allowed Poles to target other players in free agency. For instance, this might have allowed them to increase their offer to Brian Allen or pursue other defensive players.



We don't know when the physical was possible.

It may have been done in the most expeditious manner possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:32 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
RFDC wrote:
How did he bungle the Ogunjobi situation? They agreed to a contract with a guy that was pretty well thought to be a good signing and then when he when he didnt pass his physical he moved on. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?


Yes.

Every NFL signing is based upon passing a physical/


The physical should have happened on Monday, especially since Poles had come to an agreement with Ogunjobi during the negotiating period AND the Bears knew he suffered a significant injury during the playoffs. Completing the physical expeditiously would have allowed Poles to target other players in free agency. For instance, this might have allowed them to increase their offer to Brian Allen or pursue other defensive players.



We don't know when the physical was possible.

It may have been done in the most expeditious manner possible.


:lol:

What?

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:39 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
The fact that the team has a new GM works more in favor of my argument than it does yours. So does the fact that Poles was willing to spend $40 million on Ogunjobi but virtually nothing on the offense.

Nevertheless, I can't wait to learn of all the transformative free agent signings Poles makes after June 1!

Maybe our receiving corps and offensive line will eventually be as good as last year. :lol:


No, it doesn't. Poles has no loyalty to Fields because he didn't draft him. GMs that draft a quarterback waste assets and spend foolishly to appease a segment of the fan base.

The reality is that there hasn't been a difference maker on the market that Poles passed on. It's just more "Poor Justin" griping before the draft, OTAs, mini camp, training camp, or a preseason game.


Your contrarian mindset has persuaded you that you are disagreeing with me when you are actually supporting my argument.


That's one way to view it. You and Caller Bob are up in arms about the Bears offseason before March has ended. The 2nd and 3rd wave of free agency and the draft will likely produce comparable receivers to the ones that are already signed.


Your comments don't respond to anything I said above.

I'm hardly "up in arms" about anything Poles has done. But I certainly don't think it's unfair to question his signings so far. You are far more defensive regarding Poles than any poster here is regarding Fields.


What was left for me to respond to? You're projecting. Nearly every day, there is another post from you and Caller Bob bitching about the Bears offseason, even though it is still March. Outside of Caller Bob wishing that Poles traded draft capital to assume Amari Cooper's contract, you all aren't exactly offering up the game changing moves you wish Poles would have made.

I don't know if Poles will be good or continue the GM suckage. Of the guys who signed long-term contracts, MVS and Gage were the only guys that I liked a lot. Both chose to play with an established HoF quarterback. Fundamentally, I haven't seen anything that goes against building a long-term winner.

I think you and Caller Bob need to be patient. Fields' growth this offseason isn't dependent upon taking a flyer on an injured and/or mediocre wide receiver.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:41 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.


What should Poles have done besides trade for Cooper's contract? It really sounds like you loved the direction of Pace and Nagy.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:43 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
RFDC wrote:
How did he bungle the Ogunjobi situation? They agreed to a contract with a guy that was pretty well thought to be a good signing and then when he when he didnt pass his physical he moved on. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?


Yes.

Every NFL signing is based upon passing a physical/


The physical should have happened on Monday, especially since Poles had come to an agreement with Ogunjobi during the negotiating period AND the Bears knew he suffered a significant injury during the playoffs. Completing the physical expeditiously would have allowed Poles to target other players in free agency. For instance, this might have allowed them to increase their offer to Brian Allen or pursue other defensive players.



We don't know when the physical was possible.

It may have been done in the most expeditious manner possible.


:lol:

What?


The physical could have taken place on the first day that Ogunjobi was available for it.

Neither one of us would know when that day was.

Is that clear enough?

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:48 am 
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Nas wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
The fact that the team has a new GM works more in favor of my argument than it does yours. So does the fact that Poles was willing to spend $40 million on Ogunjobi but virtually nothing on the offense.

Nevertheless, I can't wait to learn of all the transformative free agent signings Poles makes after June 1!

Maybe our receiving corps and offensive line will eventually be as good as last year. :lol:


No, it doesn't. Poles has no loyalty to Fields because he didn't draft him. GMs that draft a quarterback waste assets and spend foolishly to appease a segment of the fan base.

The reality is that there hasn't been a difference maker on the market that Poles passed on. It's just more "Poor Justin" griping before the draft, OTAs, mini camp, training camp, or a preseason game.


Your contrarian mindset has persuaded you that you are disagreeing with me when you are actually supporting my argument.


That's one way to view it. You and Caller Bob are up in arms about the Bears offseason before March has ended. The 2nd and 3rd wave of free agency and the draft will likely produce comparable receivers to the ones that are already signed.


Your comments don't respond to anything I said above.

I'm hardly "up in arms" about anything Poles has done. But I certainly don't think it's unfair to question his signings so far. You are far more defensive regarding Poles than any poster here is regarding Fields.


What was left for me to respond to? You're projecting. Nearly every day, there is another post from you and Caller Bob bitching about the Bears offseason, even though it is still March. Outside of Caller Bob wishing that Poles traded draft capital to assume Amari Cooper's contract, you all aren't exactly offering up the game changing moves you wish Poles would have made.

I don't know if Poles will be good or continue the GM suckage. Of the guys who signed long-term contracts, MVS and Gage were the only guys that I liked a lot. Both chose to play with an established HoF quarterback. Fundamentally, I haven't seen anything that goes against building a long-term winner.

I think you and Caller Bob need to be patient. Fields' growth this offseason isn't dependent upon taking a flyer on an injured and/or mediocre wide receiver.


The Bears desperately need competent offensive linemen. Several were available in free agency, some at a very reasonable cost. There's your game-changing moves. This really isn't that hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:48 am 
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Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.


What should Poles have done besides trade for Cooper's contract? It really sounds like you loved the direction of Pace and Nagy.


Plenty of other receivers besides Cooper have been available.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:50 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
RFDC wrote:
How did he bungle the Ogunjobi situation? They agreed to a contract with a guy that was pretty well thought to be a good signing and then when he when he didnt pass his physical he moved on. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?


Yes.

Every NFL signing is based upon passing a physical/


The physical should have happened on Monday, especially since Poles had come to an agreement with Ogunjobi during the negotiating period AND the Bears knew he suffered a significant injury during the playoffs. Completing the physical expeditiously would have allowed Poles to target other players in free agency. For instance, this might have allowed them to increase their offer to Brian Allen or pursue other defensive players.



We don't know when the physical was possible.

It may have been done in the most expeditious manner possible.


:lol:

What?


The physical could have taken place on the first day that Ogunjobi was available for it.

Neither one of us would know when that day was.

Is that clear enough?


:lol:

The Bears were about to give him a contract far richer than anything he's ever been paid. I think they could have "persuaded" him to take the physical earlier, that is, unless Poles is an incompetent negotiator.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:00 am 
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Poles needs to add a good to great WR through FA or the draft for Fields development. Mooney isn't a number 1. On an average team, he might be a #2 or #3. On a team like Miami or the Rams or Tampa, he might not even make the roster. Mooney is like the leading scorer on the worst NBA team, someone has to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:07 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
RFDC wrote:
How did he bungle the Ogunjobi situation? They agreed to a contract with a guy that was pretty well thought to be a good signing and then when he when he didnt pass his physical he moved on. Isn't that what he is supposed to do?


Yes.

Every NFL signing is based upon passing a physical/


The physical should have happened on Monday, especially since Poles had come to an agreement with Ogunjobi during the negotiating period AND the Bears knew he suffered a significant injury during the playoffs. Completing the physical expeditiously would have allowed Poles to target other players in free agency. For instance, this might have allowed them to increase their offer to Brian Allen or pursue other defensive players.



We don't know when the physical was possible.

It may have been done in the most expeditious manner possible.


:lol:

What?


The physical could have taken place on the first day that Ogunjobi was available for it.

Neither one of us would know when that day was.

Is that clear enough?


Tall Midget wrote:
:lol:

The Bears were about to give him a contract far richer than anything he's ever been paid. I think they could have "persuaded" him to take the physical earlier, that is, unless Poles is an incompetent negotiator.


Persuaded? Really?

The Bears and every other NFL team offer contracts based upon passing a physical.

Physicals in the NFL are regularly done on the day of signing.

Poles should have schedules an earlier one in order to avoid criticism for following regular NFL protocols?

I don't think so.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:06 am 
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Augie wrote:
Poles needs to add a good to great WR through FA or the draft for Fields development. Mooney isn't a number 1. On an average team, he might be a #2 or #3. On a team like Miami or the Rams or Tampa, he might not even make the roster. Mooney is like the leading scorer on the worst NBA team, someone has to be.


I don't disagree that having a stud WR helps a young/every quarterback. There aren't many in the league, and the Bears didn't have the assets to acquire one this offseason. I believe that we'll be able to see if Fields has taken a few steps before our first game. I don't think that the MANY holes in his game are dependent on a WR in order to be fixed.

The Bears will have a run heavy offense. IF they can protect him, he should be fine. IF he's makes the Year 2 leap, the NFC North and NFC may be ours for a decade. We'll have the resources to do whatever needs to be done in 2023.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:07 am 
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Seacrest wrote:

Persuaded? Really?

The Bears and every other NFL team offer contracts based upon passing a physical.

Physicals in the NFL are regularly done on the day of signing.

Poles should have schedules an earlier one in order to avoid criticism for following regular NFL protocols?

I don't think so.


You make a good point, but the Bears could have brought him in on the first day of free agency rather than waiting until the following day. And as I've previously said, it made no sense to identify an injured player coming off a career year on a one-year deal as the top priority in free agency. This is especially true given the size of the Bears' contract offer, which was more than double what Ogunjobi previously made. It would have made more sense to target a guy like Brian Allen and/or other offensive linemen who were cheaper, healthier, and more proven. Because they targeted, Ogunjobi, however, they were apparently unwilling or unable to increase their offer to Allen.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:10 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.


What should Poles have done besides trade for Cooper's contract? It really sounds like you loved the direction of Pace and Nagy.


Plenty of other receivers besides Cooper have been available.


That's so vague. Who were the game changing receivers that the Bears had the capital to acquire?

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:12 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:

Persuaded? Really?

The Bears and every other NFL team offer contracts based upon passing a physical.

Physicals in the NFL are regularly done on the day of signing.

Poles should have schedules an earlier one in order to avoid criticism for following regular NFL protocols?

I don't think so.


You make a good point, but the Bears could have brought him in on the first day of free agency rather than waiting until the following day. And as I've previously said, it made no sense to identify an injured player coming off a career year on a one-year deal as the top priority in free agency. This is especially true given the size of the Bears' contract offer, which was more than double what Ogunjobi previously made. It would have made more sense to target a guy like Brian Allen and/or other offensive linemen who were cheaper, healthier, and more proven. Because they targeted, Ogunjobi, however, they were apparently unwilling or unable to increase their offer to Allen.


You know Midge, I think there is more to this then we are being told. I saw it reported as a broken foot.

I never saw a Lisfranc issue until after the failed physical. And there is a world of difference in those two injuries.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:12 am 
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The other thing that is strange about the Ogunjobi Affair is that, as Nas has repeatedly mentioned, Poles has stated his affinity for acquiring second- or third-wave free agents. If that's the case, why didn't he adhere to this philosophy vis a vis Ogunjobi, who received a pretty significant offer from the Bears?

Some have said they like Poles because he appears to be sticking to a clearly defined plan. The Ogunjobi situation suggests otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:15 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.



I find the signing of Siemian strange when you consider how much is still owed to Foles.

Maybe there is another deal in place for Foles.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:25 am 
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Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.


What should Poles have done besides trade for Cooper's contract? It really sounds like you loved the direction of Pace and Nagy.


Plenty of other receivers besides Cooper have been available.


That's so vague. Who were the game changing receivers that the Bears had the capital to acquire?

Bob's just flying around like a pigeon who ate a rancid pile of elites and is now shitting indiscriminately on anything having to do with the Bears. And like a pigeon, there isn't any thought process to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:25 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.



I find the signing of Siemian strange when you consider how much is still owed to Foles.

Maybe there is another deal in place for Foles.


I don't. IF they find a trade partner for Foles, I believe they will save $8M on the salary cap and have a $2M dead cap hit. If they cut him, they'll save like $3M and have a dead cap hit of $7M. Siemian only cost the Bears $2M per year. They're saving money regardless of what happens with Foles.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:29 am 
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.


What should Poles have done besides trade for Cooper's contract? It really sounds like you loved the direction of Pace and Nagy.


Plenty of other receivers besides Cooper have been available.


That's so vague. Who were the game changing receivers that the Bears had the capital to acquire?

Bob's just flying around like a pigeon who ate a rancid pile of elites and is now shitting indiscriminately on anything having to do with the Bears. And like a pigeon, there isn't any thought process to it.


Yeah, I kind of get it. We haven't exactly had a successful GM since Angelo was fired. That being said, I think the argument is better when you can specify what you would have done instead of the general statements about hating the roster construction in March.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:29 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Seacrest wrote:

Persuaded? Really?

The Bears and every other NFL team offer contracts based upon passing a physical.

Physicals in the NFL are regularly done on the day of signing.

Poles should have schedules an earlier one in order to avoid criticism for following regular NFL protocols?

I don't think so.


You make a good point, but the Bears could have brought him in on the first day of free agency rather than waiting until the following day. And as I've previously said, it made no sense to identify an injured player coming off a career year on a one-year deal as the top priority in free agency. This is especially true given the size of the Bears' contract offer, which was more than double what Ogunjobi previously made. It would have made more sense to target a guy like Brian Allen and/or other offensive linemen who were cheaper, healthier, and more proven. Because they targeted, Ogunjobi, however, they were apparently unwilling or unable to increase their offer to Allen.


You know Midge, I think there is more to this then we are being told. I saw it reported as a broken foot.

I never saw a Lisfranc issue until after the failed physical. And there is a world of difference in those two injuries.


There was definitely some confusion about the kind of injury Ogunjobi suffered, but that was cleared up by late January or early February. I do think something strange has taken place, here, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:30 am 
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.


What should Poles have done besides trade for Cooper's contract? It really sounds like you loved the direction of Pace and Nagy.


Plenty of other receivers besides Cooper have been available.


That's so vague. Who were the game changing receivers that the Bears had the capital to acquire?

Bob's just flying around like a pigeon who ate a rancid pile of elites and is now shitting indiscriminately on anything having to do with the Bears. And like a pigeon, there isn't any thought process to it.


I'm simply making observations about how one of the the worst offenses in football has actually gotten worse this offseason. You and RDFC can cry about me being negative about the Bears, but facts are facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:38 am 
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I really would like to see an example of a team "tearing down" right AFTER drafting a high 1st round QB. This 100% points to Poles wanting to move on from Fields already.


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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:44 am 
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Nas wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.



I find the signing of Siemian strange when you consider how much is still owed to Foles.

Maybe there is another deal in place for Foles.


I don't. IF they find a trade partner for Foles, I believe they will save $8M on the salary cap and have a $2M dead cap hit. If they cut him, they'll save like $3M and have a dead cap hit of $7M. Siemian only cost the Bears $2M per year. They're saving money regardless of what happens with Foles.


According to spotrac.com, they save $3 million against the cap if they release him, $4 million if they trade him.

I think they would have saved an additional $4 million if they had moved him prior to March 21, when his roster bonus kicked in.

So why didn't they launch him prior to giving him his roster bonus?

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:50 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
No team has tanked a roster right after drafting a young quarterback in the first round. You tank, get the pick, get the QB then build UP the roster. This is truly bizzaro world under Ryan Poles.



I find the signing of Siemian strange when you consider how much is still owed to Foles.

Maybe there is another deal in place for Foles.


I don't. IF they find a trade partner for Foles, I believe they will save $8M on the salary cap and have a $2M dead cap hit. If they cut him, they'll save like $3M and have a dead cap hit of $7M. Siemian only cost the Bears $2M per year. They're saving money regardless of what happens with Foles.


According to spotrac.com, they save $3 million against the cap if they release him, $4 million if they trade him.

I think they would have saved an additional $4 million if they had moved him prior to March 21, when his roster bonus kicked in.

So why didn't they launch him prior to giving him his roster bonus?


This is why I'm not sold on Fields being Poles guy?

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:55 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
I really would like to see an example of a team "tearing down" right AFTER drafting a high 1st round QB. This 100% points to Poles wanting to move on from Fields already.

Valid point, but I'd say it's also rare for a GM to get fired the year after drafting a high 1st round QB. The whole situation is unique.

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:58 am 
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BigW72 wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
I really would like to see an example of a team "tearing down" right AFTER drafting a high 1st round QB. This 100% points to Poles wanting to move on from Fields already.

Valid point, but I'd say it's also rare for a GM to get fired the year after drafting a high 1st round QB. The whole situation is unique.


True, but Poles seems to dislike the vast majority of the roster he's inherited. Why wouldn't that include Fields?

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 Post subject: Re: Off-season Wish List
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:01 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
BigW72 wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
I really would like to see an example of a team "tearing down" right AFTER drafting a high 1st round QB. This 100% points to Poles wanting to move on from Fields already.

Valid point, but I'd say it's also rare for a GM to get fired the year after drafting a high 1st round QB. The whole situation is unique.


True, but Poles seems to dislike the vast majority of the roster he's inherited. Why wouldn't that include Fields?

I honestly dont see how any GM right now could have a strong opinion on Fields. He needs more time.

I get that brings up the point of why is he not surrounding him with more this year. I am going to withhold too much judgement on that until we get an actual look on the roster when the season starts. Still a lot of time with the draft and cuts, etc.

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