My opinion on the core is they had so much success so early they never had the drive to improve themselves. I think Maddon being so laid back and "chill" also hurt because he wasn't the type of manager who would get in a player's face and challenge him

I thought this quote by Bryant in 2017 was telling

"I don't see any reason to worry, especially given what we did last year. There is no need to worry. You're going to have your good years, you're going to have your bad years. Your good starts, your bad starts. This is an average start; it's not a terrible start. Sometimes it happens. We've spoiled ourselves with last year and that start. I guess it's a good thing to have those expectations because we do, too."

To me that just says "hey we won the world series last year, we will be good this year when we decide to be" That's the wrong attitude to have

In 2016 you expected them to kick butt every time they took the field, you could even sense it in the players, "we are hear to kick your butt"

In 2017 it seemed like they just expected the other team to roll over and the players just never bettered themselves

Win a title and nothing else matters. The Cubs won a title and now they and their fans can coast for another 3 or 4 decades not really worrying about it. You feel bad for the future generations that haven't been able to experience it.

That's why it was funny when former poster IMU backed himself into a corner by saying that if they don't win multiple titles then it was a failure. He is the only miserable Cubs fan left over the age of 15.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It wasn't a failure, but it was like the '85 Bears...a potential dynasty that never materialized. And now telling fans they have to bottom out and go through another series of white-flag seasons is disgraceful. Meanwhile, the Cardinals are headed for their 15th straight winning season.

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It had little to do with Maddon. The core of the team never got better. Bryant looked like a guy who could be a Trout type generational player. He turned out to be too brittle and now spends time in the training room collecting from that stupid Colorado contract. Russell had his personal issues finish him. Rizzo just got older sooner than you'd hope. And Theo should have shook the team up after 2017 or 2018 but never did so. Hopefully the White Sox won't make the same mistake and hang on to potential too long.

Theo was a master con man. He talked about sustained excellence through waves of talent. Then when bad drafts occured repeatedly he changed his tune that it wasn't his goal to build up the Iowa Cubs. Now at least there's some new blood in talent evaluation with Carter Hawkins and Jared Banner. Only time will tell if they're successful.

The difference is the Cubs didn't pay big money to any of the core, whereas Hahn locked up players early. He was praised for that until it started looking like these guys might not pan out after all. Some of these guys look like bad money.

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If all of those guys needed a manager to "get in their face" in order to have them take counter measures to the league's adjustments against them, they were all going to fail at some point.

From 2015-2020 the Cubs made the playoffs 5 out of 6 years, made three straight NLCS, and won a world series. Essentially every regular season game they participated in during that stretch was meaningful. It was wildly entertaining as a fan.

Sure everyone wants to win a title, and that was just wonderful, but honestly, as I get older I'm less and less concerned with the singular goal of a title. Sure, it's great, but I just want to be engaged and entertained. The "Core" Cubs and the rest of the guys on the team provided wonderful entertainment during that six year stretch, was fun to be able to enjoy it.

It was a great run from a Chicago baseball perspective. We are all disappointed they only got one, but it was tons of fun. Outside of Bryant, they were likable too.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Yeah, I agree that a title is not everything. For the Cubs it was everything for a while, and they happened to steal one (not saying it was luck, but it certainly was in doubt). I can't say that team was any better than the 2003/2004 Cubs on paper. The difference is one got the job done barely and one barely missed.

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Everyday lineup way better in 2016 over 2003. People forget they only won 88 games in 2003. Cubs defense in 2016 way better. Pitching staff was only place it was close

Good thing the Sox fans wont have decades of not really worrying about it.
Cubs World Series Titles : 1907 1908 2016
Sox World Series Titles : 1907 1917 2005

The Chicago White Sox last made the playoffs in 2021, when they lost the AL Divisional Series. They've been in the playoffs a total of 11 times in their 118 seasons.

The Cubs last made the playoffs in 2020 and have made the playoffs 21 times in the last 118 seasons

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Yeah, 2004 looked stacked and I would say matched up well against 2016, but of course that season went off the rails.

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Biggest fuckups were trading away D.J. and Cease and Eloy, if he never signs Heyward this team looks way better.

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2005.

But also, that's exactly the point. The Sox could lose for the next 60 years of my life and the answer is still 2005.

I recommend you embrace 2016 the same way.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

See, I've always disagreed on the Cease/Eloy thing. The mistake wasn't trading those guys away, it was that they didn't go in a Verlander trade. The Astros gave up much less for Verlander. If the Cubs do the Cease/Eloy deal for Verlander, 2017-2020 looks a whole lot different.

I agree with the sentiment but it wouldn’t have mattered . The bats were the problem for the most part but yeah , having Verlander instead of Captain .500 for those years would’ve been nice .

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Cubs also would've been better off not cheaping out (relatively speaking) with Lester, and instead paying up for Scherzer.

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Eh, Lester was paid to be the anchor of a playoff rotation and a guy who had extensive World Series and playoff experience. Dude put up about a 2.50 ERA for the Cubs in the playoffs. He did what he was paid to come here and do.

Addison Russell..this one isn't mentioned enough, but this killed the core, he went from 3-4 fwAR shortstop(20+ HR power, great defense good walk rate, no strikeout issues) to rapey and out of the league..him and Bryant going from giving you over 10fWAR combined a season to nothing...

Agreed. Any Sox fan knew what Quintana was and was not...he was CLEARLY not worth Cease. I'll leave Eloy out of this as he's more fragile and unreliable than Bryant.

Bryant not reaching potential is really a pretty sad state. Dude should be battling Trout for best player in the league as the actual talent is there.

Baez and Russell are examples of too much success too soon for 2 meatballs not smart enough to handle it.

Theo made more mistakes than the Heyward contract...you can live with one big mistake and paper over it with more money, but there multiple. NOT getting Verlander was one of the biggest. NOT trading Babe Schwarber was another. Yu Darvish, Tyler Chatwood, and Kimbrel were all misses. He never figured out Center Field after Fowler left.

Theo gets credit...when given TIME and a clean slate, he did exactly what he should. Sustaining that....that's where he wet the bed.

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Don't forget about Albert Almora. He was suppose to be the next Carlos Beltran.

Almora never really gave you anything in the first place but as mentioned it was the failure to replace Folwer with a capable replacement. Rizzo and Contreras were the only bats that remained somewhat consistent after 2016.

It's not the Fowler and Russell left / imploded....it's that they could never come close to replacing their contributions.

The Addison Russell story really is a huge waste and shame. It's not like the team doesn't have handlers trying to help / inform these meatballs.

Rizzo may have aged sooner than you like, but he wasn't the waste of money like some of the others and still had value. But all's fair, since it finally came out he's a huge douche

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In fact the Sox are now going through what the Cubs went through, watching their Moncanda's and Robert's become Russell's and Bryant's..aka nobodies.

Rizzo didn't age out early. He's having a decent year. His BA isn't there but his ops is solid for his 16 million dollar salary. He takes a bunch of physical abuse, partly because he asks for it by crowding the plate and partly because he's a 1st baseman. He's just always had back issues making him seem like an old man but he never really played like one.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

100% not giving up whatever the Tigers wanted for Verlander is what killed the Cubs window. They probably make at least one more World Series with him in the rotation.

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Verdict still out on Robert. I don't think the Sox have anyone with natural talent and ceiling of Bryant. Eloy certainly has proven to be even less durable.

I also wouldn't compare them as the Cubs did actually win the world series. This core of Sox players hasn't even sniffed a World Series. Theo got really unlikeable, but he did built something pretty fucking special and they pulled one championship out.

I like the '85 Bears comp better, but I'm still betting on the 2005 White Sox to beat the 2016 Cubs.

Good Day, Bob! See you at a local Walgreens for a booster shot.

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It's ok Brick assured us this is a sleeping giant with WAVES of talent

This is a really good post in an excellent thread overall. I'm not really a fan of any team and as I have gotten older I just enjoy and appreciate the entertainment that sports provide. The NHL playoffs just wrapped up and I was absolutely consumed throughout with the Final being the best series since the 2013 Hawks/Bruins. Just the drama and the unpredictable nature of sports is why I watch. To have your perspective of the Cubs' run and appreciating the enjoyment from the ride is refreshing to hear.

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Lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be.