Far better PG.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Stockton couldn't touch Isiah as a player. He was the 2nd best player on team that never won anything. Isiah was the best player on teams that beat 2 of the best teams in NBA history. No comparison.

_________________

Not really. And Isiah dominated other point guards while Stockton couldn't score 30 points if you left him in the gym for a week by himself. No comparison as players.

_________________

Gary Payton was a big fan of Stockton as well. Had him introduce Payton at his HOF ceremony. Stockton seemed to not know why he was there the whole time.

Btw, Payton....ain't no one talk about him. He was a beast. I'd take him over Kidd.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

The description of that is awesome.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

And that is why Karl Malone had to "pack heat" and not ride the team bus the next time Utah played the Bulls in Chicago. The Vice Lords wanted to "holler" at him if you know what I mean.

_________________

Isiah was a scoring guard. He was nowhere near the facilitator or defender Stockton was. We won't even get into durability. Isiah shot his entire load by 32.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I'm surprised more things like that don't happen in all sports. The only one that seems to be public is the Jokic brothers wanting to fight everyone.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Isiah vs. Stockton IMO depends on what you are really talking about.

Isiah was the better overall player.

But Stockton was the better pure PG.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Zeke averaged over 9 assists per game for his career and double digit assist 4 times in his career with a career high 14 one season.

Again he was the best player on a team that won 2 championships while Stockton was the 2nd best player on a team that never won anything. Even in a watered down 90's NBA he still could never get a ring and only began playing in the Finals once all of the "great" Western Conference teams were finished. And if longevity were a true metric of "greatness" then guys like Kevin Willis and Udonis Haslem would be the greatest players in NBA history.

_________________

I'd give Stockton the better pure PG nod but he could never on his best day dominate a game the way Zeke could. Zeke is for my money the best small guard in NBA history. And like he said in the podcast. He is the only guy to beat Magic, Bird, and Jordan in the playoffs. That is quite the feat.

_________________

No doubt Isiah was great and def deserves his props.

But the beat Magic, Bird, and Jordan thing is a little skewed. He was not beating any of them in their prime. They are all 3 better players and in their primes they were not losing to Isiah.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Nah that isn't correct. Boston was still a great team when he knocked them off. So were the Lakers. I could provide a scenario (completely plausible) where the Pistons could very easily have had 4 straight rings. They got hosed in 88 (with the phantom call on Kareem and Zeke's injury) and still took them down to the wire in game 7. They also got hosed in 87 (when Zeke fucked up in game 5 and Dantley and Vinnie knocked each other out in game 7) with their head butting of one another. Those were easily 2 winnable series.

And unlike the other aforementioned teams, Zeke hardly had the same supporting cast as they did. Maybe the Bulls and the Bulls didn't start beating the Pistons until they were on their last legs actually.

_________________

I think the funniest thing though is the reason Bird isn't included in there is because Bird can't beat Bird but Bird beat Jordan, Magic, and Thomas.

So who is he holding that one over? Whoever the 4th best player was from 1980-1996?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

When you can't dispute the facts just simply change the "narrative"

_________________

I'm not changing anything. I'm just pointing out that his accomplishment is something that none of the three best players of the era he played in could ever do because they can't beat themselves.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Isiah played until he was 32 and Stockton played until he was 40. Stockton has more total points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, better shooting percentage, free throw percentage, and a better 3 point percentage. If you want to compare Stockton's numbers over his best 13 seasons to those of Isiah's, it wouldn't help your argument either. The only edge Isiah truly has is championships. Isiah stole 2 when the Lakers, Celtics, and Sixers were declining and Jordan was playing alone. He also needed an all star team to do that.

Stockton absolutely destroys Isiah and nearly every other player in NBA history if we start to look at the analytics/advanced stats. Stockton is 3rd in value over replacement. Isiah doesn't even crack the top 55.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Jordan never beat Bird in the playoffs. Ok now quick "explain" how that is an example of Jordan "beating himself"? Just Asking A question. Hell Jordan never won a game against Bird in the Playoffs. Zeke's point (which you can't comprehend) is that no one outside of hinself and (obviously those 3 themselves) never beat them in the playoffs. Again that is quite the feat.

_________________

Stockton playing longer just means that he had a helluva lot more years of doing absolutely nothing in terms of winning. A whole lot of first round flameouts and sweeps in there too. And career i.e. longevity numbers are useless. When Isiah was making All Star teams Stockton was playing point in the weak ass Mountain West at Gonzaga. This even though they are the same age. Advanceed stats are for John Hollinger types. Isiah dominated guards on the biggest stage imaginable. Stockton barely cracked double digits and no one ever expected him to "win a game" for them.

The mere fact that Zeke has rings as his team's best player while Stockton couldn't even get it done being a second banana with Utah says it all. As far as Zeke retiring at 32 means nothing. He entered the league at 19 while Stockton was about 23 or 24 when he entered. Zeke retired as a result of injury. Not because his skills had declined. In fact teams still wanted him even after the injury but he never could see himself playing for anyone besides the Pistons.

And when he gave Stockton 40 (twice I believe) it was while he was 31 or 32 and on his "last legs". That is how great of a player that he was.

_________________

Just asking a dumb question. Jordan couldn't beat himself because he couldn't beat himself. That's why that factoid is so misleading.

That just says that IT may have been the 4th best player of the era though.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

If that's your standard you have to admit that LeBron is indisputably better than Jordan. See, that's why it's impossible to argue with Jordan fanboys who grew up wanting to Be Like Mike. They will always shift the parameters to whatever favors Jordan. LeBron's numbers are better? Well, the numbers don't tell the story. Mike was a finisher. He wanted to destroy his opponents.



His edge over Stockton is TWTW. Just like that's Jordan's edge over LeBron.

There were always those games where Isiah was 2 for 12 from the field and the Pistons were getting spanked. Then the fourth quarter came. Zeke went 8 for 9 and the Pistons coasted to victory. Fuck John Stockton.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 5:8

Jordan also never beat Bird either and never beat Magic until Kareem retired. Isiah didn't need Kareem to retire in order to beat him. Which makes your point rather "dumb" and "misleading".

Whose arguing otherwise? Just Asking A Question. You're arguing with yourself about a point no one actually made. Shocking!

_________________

All you are pointing out is why it is such a bad factoid which is my point.


I'm pointing out how the factoid doesn't really mean much and if it ultimately means "IT may have been the fourth best player of the time period he played in" then I'll consider that another reason why it doesn't really mean that much.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Great point.


Nah his edge was in that he was simply a better player. He was a dominant point guard whereas Stockton was not. And in the era in which Isiah was dominating Stockton was an afterthought. Even though they were the same age. Couldn't even sniff the Conference Finals (let alone NBA Finals) when you had the sort of "great teams" that Isiah had to compete against.

_________________

To you probably but then again nothing does besides disagreeing merely for the sake of disagreeing.

_________________

Pointing out how Jordan never beat Bird yet Isiah did is a bad "factoid"? Oh and yeah merely example of how Jordan is "beating himself"?. Are you trying to state that Jordan and Bird were one and the same guy? Just Asking Questions

_________________

You seem quite upset that I pointed out that Larry Bird did not have a chance to beat Larry Bird. I guess it's a cool factoid to hold over Dominique Wilkins and Moses Malone.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I think when guys are looking at the numbers and declaring Stockton the "better point guard" they're getting caught up in all those years that Stockton was the assists leader. But the only reason Isiah averaged one less assist than Stockton for their careers is that Isiah was often his team's best scoring option and Stockton never was.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 5:8

Yep. That is why eye test is so important. Isiah dropped double digit assists 4 years running all while being the #1 scoring option. Not only was Stockton NEVER A #1 scoring option, but he was never a #2 or #3 either. There were a ton of years where guys like Thurl Bailey, Jeff Malone, Jeff Hornacek and Chicago's very own Rickey Green were looked upon to get a bucket when Stockton was not.

_________________

I am pointing out that in the factoid "I'm the only one to ever beat Bird, Jordan, and Magic in the playoffs" that it would be impossible for any of the top 3 players from that era to ever accomplish that.

So, take that Moses Malone and Dominique!

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!